To better understand how Timeshift works, read this

[AZgl1800]

Tony George is working on a paid replacement for Timeshift.

goto this URL
https://teejeetech.com/2023/12/24/previ ... more-13921

and Scroll down to the Topic Heading New System Restore App


I learned a lot in this URL.....

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Looks promising. Incremental snapshots will save a lot of space but I could see problems with people deleting older snapshots that will destroy the integrity of a snapshot string (similar to what happened with Macrium Reflect when users making incremental and differential images would delete earlier images).

Being able to easily relocate snapshots would also be nice.

Thanks for the update. I'll be like the cat who ate the cheese and then waited by the mouse hole with "baited" breath.

[Moem]

the cat who ate the cheese

Cutting out the middle mouse.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

the cat who ate the cheese

Cutting out the middle mouse.

groan meter.gif (47.77 KiB) Viewed 965 times

[AZgl1800]

the cat who ate the cheese

Cutting out the middle mouse.

you are going to have to EXPLAIN the reason behind that deletion...

does not make sense to this American boy

[schellasu]

Looks promising. Incremental snapshots will save a lot of space but I could see problems with people deleting older snapshots that will destroy the integrity of a snapshot string

You still does not understand TS

A snapshot is a complete and independent copy of its source

Believe it or not, its a fact, it's the way hardlinks and rsync work together.
So it is of non interest, whatever Snapshot is deleted, they are independent from each other.

[MikeNovember]

Hi,

There is another application, free and OpenSource: FreeFileSync.

It is normally intended to back up home data, but nothing prevents to back up system (FreeFileSync does just need to be launched with superuser rights).

It is not an incremental, but a differential backup program: what is backed up is what has changed, and the files no longer used are deleted (though you have a setting to keep them).

It is also very fast, and uses its own sync algorithm (not based on rsync, or on borg, or on anything else).

Note that I don't know if FreeFileSync could be used to restore a system, while running on this system, like Timeshift can do. It might need to be used from an external live DVD or USB key.

I don't think that Teejee is on the good track when using incremental backups, that are difficult to restore (your restore Monday, than Tuesday difference between Monday and Tuesday etc.). Of course, he knows the tricks and the "magic" since it uses it in Timeshift.
But a differential backup seems much less complex than an incremental one.

I am not convinced by the necessity to encrypt and compress system backup in its future application: today, a file in Timeshift snapshot can just be copied and pasted to replace a system file; with encryption and compression, this would be no longer possible.

Regards,

MN

[motoryzen]

So it is of non interest, whatever Snapshot is deleted, they are independent from each other.

No they are NOT independent from each other. I've proven this multiple times just earlier this year with deleting the oldest and 2nd oldest of my timeshift snapshots, then when I tried to restore to a previous TS snapshot, Timeshift would not show it as an available one be it booted from my LM installed main drive, or from a Live LM boot media.

I ended up reinstalling LM. Please do not spread false information


** IF **** Timeshift is considered to be a " Differential backup ' coherent solution...then one should read the info here...

https://www.techtarget.com/searchdataba ... ial-backup

If a complete restore is needed at some point in time, only the last full backup and latest differential backup are required.

Thus YES it DOES matter if you delete the 1st original backup as THAT contains the comparison point for TS to ...restore your system from.

Again.. I've learned this the hard way....twice this year.

[schellasu]

So it is of non interest, whatever Snapshot is deleted, they are independent from each other.

No they are NOT independent from each other.

Another one which does not understand what a hardlink is, and how it is used in TS, how ext4 works, the function of the link count in an inode,....
Whatever you have done wrong, don't blame it to TS.
Made a tar-file from a SnapShot an a hash from that.
Deleted the predecessor of that SnapShot, made the tar an hash again, and they are EQUAL.
If you would understand, what I listed above, you would know that there could not be any other than independency.
Independency is in ext4, not in TimeShift.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Looks promising. Incremental snapshots will save a lot of space but I could see problems with people deleting older snapshots that will destroy the integrity of a snapshot string

You still does not understand TS...

First, when you partially quote someone, please indicate that you have done so with an ellipses before and/or after the partial quote to show where text has been omitted (such as I did above to show I omitted text after "TS". Also, quoting out of context has the danger of completely changing the meaning of the quote, which has happened here (and I do NOT appreciate have the meaning of my comments altered!).

Second, the fact you omitted "but I could see problems with people deleting older snapshots that will destroy the integrity of a snapshot string (similar to what happened with Macrium Reflect when users making incremental and differential images would delete earlier images" indicates you didn't understand what I said.

The part of my comment on saving space was referring this bullet point in TeeGee's article, especially the portion of the quote below in italics, that was linked in the first post of this thread:

"...Borg snapshots are very space-efficient and require less disk space than Rsync snapshots. For example, if a 1 GB file changes by 1 KB, the new snapshot will store only the 1 KB that has changed, unlike Rsync snapshots which will store the 1 GB file again..."

At no time in my post did I refer to Timeshift. I was talking only about the proposed replacement for Timeshift, not Timeshift itself, and comparing the use of incremental backups, which is what appears to be what is described in the latter part of the above quote of the TeeGee's bullet point, to problems that people experienced when using Macrium Reflect, which also refers to their backups as snapshots, which would only partially restore a string (group, collection, whatever term you use) of incremental or differential backups or completely fail, if any part of the string was deleted or otherwise lost. BTW, the term "snapshot" is not unique to Timeshift; I've seen it used as far back as the Commodore 64s when I had a cartridge called Snapshot (I think 5.0) for my C64c that essentially did the same thing that Timeshift does.

Since it would be easier for people to delete or remove snapshots in the new app, that was a source for my concern based on the problems people had with Macrium Reflect when using incremental backups. TeeGee is pretty sharp so I'm hoping he will include in the new apps GUI a way to ensure incremental strings (groups, whatever) will only be seen as a whole when users manipulate them.

The parts of the new app I'm eager to see is the reduced size of snapshots and, especially, the ability easily copy and move snapshots anywhere, which would be more convenient and a huge time saver for me.

[schellasu]

Looks promising. Incremental snapshots will save a lot of space but I could see problems with people deleting older snapshots that will destroy the integrity of a snapshot string

You still does not understand TS...

You did not refer to Timeshift?
Read your title.
As I have a good understanding of timeshift, I did not follow the link

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Hi,

There is another application, free and OpenSource: FreeFileSync.

It is normally intended to back up home data, but nothing prevents to back up system (FreeFileSync does just need to be launched with superuser rights)...

While it might be possible to restore a system with FreeFileSync, it would get complicated in a hurry due to permissions issues (which you mentioned) and would probably need to run from a live disk. Even in its current state, using Timeshift is much easier and has been proven over and over to be quite reliable when used correctly (there is no such thing as idiot proof software; every time someone tries to create something idiot proof, new and better idiots will show up).

I've found a three prong approach for backups to be the easiest, most efficient, and most effective for me.

1. Use Timeshift to quickly create a snapshot of my OS, settings, and programs that can be later to quickly restore the OS, settings, and programs on a still bootable computer to the state they were at when the snapshot was created. I make a weekly snapshot whether I think I need it or not. I also make one just prior to installing questionable updates, adding or removing programs, or changing any settings.

A huge advantage of Timeshift is it can create snapshots in the background while still using the computer for other things. It's also very reliable.

The big downside is it's not reliable nor easy to use for restoring snapshots when the computer can't be booted.

2. Make a weekly image using Foxclone for use when restoring the OS, programs, and settings when the computer can't be booted or the boot drive has died and needs replacing.

Foxclone's biggest advantage is its ability to restore an unbootable computer. You can also use it to verify that the image is viable after creating it.

The big downside is it has to run from a live disk and you can't use the computer while it is running.

3. Use FreeFileSync to backup my personal data (I dramatically simplify the process by keeping all of my personal data—Documents, Music, Videos, Pictures, etc.—on separate drives and/or partitions and not in /home. FreeFileSync is essentially a sophisticated copy program that is fast, efficient, and accurate and can be set to automagically verify each file copy.

It's biggest advantage is it can be used to backup data, or quickly update a backup, in the background while the computer is still running and being used for other things. Backed up data can be accessed as is and a minimal amount of writing is involved (this is especially beneficial for SSDS).

The only downside I can think of is it's not suitable for backing up the OS or apps.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

You still does not understand TS...

You did not refer to Timeshift?
Read your title.
As I have a good understanding of timeshift, I did not follow the link

The only title of my post was that of the thread itself, which is actually about TeeGee's proposed replacement for Timeshift, something you should have realized had you taken the time to actually read, or even glance at, the article instead jumping to baseless, inaccurate conclusions.

[Moem]

the cat who ate the cheese

Cutting out the middle mouse.

you are going to have to EXPLAIN the reason behind that deletion...

does not make sense to this American boy

Sorry, what deletion?

It was just a silly joke. I was referring to "cutting out the middle man", but in this case it was a mouse, because the cat ate the cheese directly.

[AZgl1800]

just an interim pause:

back when I was IT in a Windows organization, we used Macrium Reflect.

But, we NEVER, EVER, used it Incremental Mode.
totally Unsafe with multiple hands in the mix "managing the files on the Server"

each backup, was noted in a Folder for a Specific Workstation and user, and it was a Full Image, period.

ID10T people who ignored the Policy, got their workstation restored back to the OEM condition, sans any personal files.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Cutting out the middle mouse.

you are going to have to EXPLAIN the reason behind that deletion...

does not make sense to this American boy

Sorry, what deletion?

It was just a silly joke. I was referring to "cutting out the middle man", but in this case it was a mouse, because the cat ate the cheese directly.

And here I thought you meant the middle cat. Silly me.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

just an interim pause:

back when I was IT in a Windows organization, we used Macrium Reflect.

But, we NEVER, EVER, used it Incremental Mode.
totally Unsafe with multiple hands in the mix "managing the files on the Server"...

I also never use incremental or differential images back when I used Macrium Reflect. Heck, even with only my grubby hands in the mix, it was dangerous.

[fstjohn]

I got the attached email from Tony today, outlining his projects for the new year and possibly beyond. The most interesting to me is a replacement for the venerable Timeshift (which he wrote), using Borg Backup rather than Rsync. The new app looks to be very similar to Homi in look and feel, but is designed to backup the system rather than Home. Homi and the new, as yet unnamed, system backup app make a natural pair. My suggestion for a name? Rooti. (Homi for Home, Rooti for Root )

According to Tony, Borg is extremely efficient and space-saving. For instance if a 1GB file is to be backed up and only 1KB has changed since the last backup, then Borg only backs up the 1KB. Here's a link to the "Apps in Development":

https://is.gd/fRKwdj

[AZgl1800]

I have always noticed that he is NOT an ego freak, he does not even mention that he wrote Timeshift originally.

Timeshift was created way back in 2013. Over a decade it slowly accumulated options and settings that went beyond its original purpose and increased the complexity of the restoration process.

and then goes on to mention that:

Most people today use Timeshift to backup their personal data which is not what it was designed for.

and it is that last feature, which should never had the Option checkbox available to back up /home

[Lady Fitzgerald]

...

Most people today use Timeshift to backup their personal data which is not what it was designed for.

and it is that last feature, which should never had the Option checkbox available to back up /home

The problem with that is /home also holds the configurations/settings that one may want or need to be backed up along with the rest of the OS. No matter how "idiot proof" one may try to make something, new and better idiots will come along defeating that attempt. Never underestimate the power of idiots to circumvent idiot proofing.

Just eliminating the option to backup /home would be just an attempt to treat a symptom instead of the actual problem and would be a problem for me (and probably others) because of the configurations/settings in there that I want backed up with the rest of the OS and programs. A possibly better "solution" to the problem of people trying to backup their personal data with Timeshift would be to make the only option for backing up data in /home to include only the hidden files in /home.

Another possibility that just struck me (ouch! ) would be to have two "versions" or "modes" of "Timeshift II": Basic and Advanced. The Basic version or mode would be activated by default when installing Linux and would have all of /home blocked from backup. An Advanced version or mode, when activated, would be for the more adventuresome of us who want to further tweak our systems to better suit our needs and would allow us to include part or all of /home. If someone was Goofy enough to mess up the advanced version, that would be Goofy's problem, not the program developer's (I dislike nanny programs). I suspect the vast majority of Linux users would be happy with the Basic version.

Curing the problem instead of just treating the symptom would be for Linux to not default to keeping personal data in /home but that's beyond TeeGee's purview (duh!).