Framework 13 - Is it really a viable option?

[TitForTat]

[Edit] Original topic was: "Linux laptop that is repairable with lasting performance (Framework vs HP)"

Hi all,

since I am quite annoyed by my macbook air m1 (only goodthings are screen quality, build quality and speekers and no fan noise) I am looking for a good "everyday, do it all x86 machine" (arm is not bad but so many applicaitions I like are not supported... and lets not talk about mac os. Don't know what I was thinking trying apple (other than just having a look).

Now here is a litte more background:
Currently I feel I have too many devices and I am a huge advocate on achieving the max with as litte as possible. That does not mean going borderline cheap or low powered but max sensible performance I need that lasts me some time (lets throw 5 years or so in the room as a benchmark). Looking at my main pc which is quite capable on 4k gaming (which is a guilty pleasure of mine and can get in the way of doing more important things unfortunately), it stays off more and more because of me trying to focus on ACTUAL important stuff. Admitting to having somewhat of an unhealthy relationship to gaming, especially when it comes to escape difficult situations in the real world, I am thinking of getting rid of my main pc.

Cutting out gaming, there is not much left I do on a computer that requires a high level of performance. A litte gimp here, a litte inkscapce maybe there, mainly text based work, multimedia and browsing. Maybe once in a year a video I edit for personal stuff.

Coming to the main point:
I find myself doing 90-95% of what I do on a computer on my laptop and here is where I need some advice/recommendation on two laptops (or any other if there are further options). Focusing (as said above) on good but not exessive performance that will last couple (5?) years and which I can somewhat upgrade or repair. I see myself using the laptop via usb c on my 4k screen (200% scale) as my "main pc", as a mobile device and via egpu I can return to modest gaming without going overboard again on pc hardware (yes I know the issues with the bandwidth limitation). Basically, just like Linus (LTT) where he created a setup just using a laptop, connecting it via usb dock to a screen and egpu)... if anyone knows that video.

1. Framework 13 (ryzen 5 or ryzen 7 variant of the 7000 series)
(+) high customizability/repairablity (even motherboard with cpu is upgradable but is it actually THAT useful?), lots of parts available in theory
(+/-) future parts availability unclear (in 5 years for example), build quaility not as good as my mba m1 but decent enough it seems, screen is OK
(-) speakers/audio is not good at all it seems, possible fan noise (I hate loud annoying things... the mba m1 being fanless is for me the biggest pro), price when compared to similar laptops (we talk about 400-500€ more for the same!)

2. HP Elitebook 845 G10 (ryzen 5 or ryzen 7 variantof the 7000 series)
(+) high customizability/repairablity (motherboard/cpu cannot be upgraded but again, is it really THAT useful/important? everything else can be changed as well), screen seems to be better, price is much lower than framework for the same config
(+/-) build quality may be decent enough, speekers not great but not really bad either, port selection is fine (not seeing myself doing all the switching of ports on the framework), parts availability/support in the future may be better since HP is a huge corporation
(-) possibly fan noise, not sure if I am missing some other points

I am really unsure, how essential the motherboard/cpu upgrade capability is and if that is worth the extra 400-500€ (maybe including the idea that parts are not difficult to get from framework in a couple of years). Btw, NO windows license for either of those two options (which is fantastic!)

Maybe someone got some experience with the framework 13 amd variant or the aforementioned hp laptop?!

Thanks for reading that massive post and thanks for ANY input on that topic!

[AndyMH]

I would add lenovo thinkpads to your list. I'm a long time user, build quality is excellent, you can download the hardware maintenance manuals - tells you how to replace every part and parts are cheap. There is also the thinkpad forum with people who know their hardware. They are also easy and cheap to get hold of second hand. I've never bought a new one.

[kc1di]

I would second AndyMH's comment Lenovo Thinkpads are linux friendly and quite repairable. Though I've never had to repair any of mine. they just seem to keep going.

[TitForTat]

I would add lenovo thinkpads to your list. I'm a long time user, build quality is excellent, you can download the hardware maintenance manuals - tells you how to replace every part and parts are cheap. There is also the thinkpad forum with people who know their hardware. They are also easy and cheap to get hold of second hand. I've never bought a new one.

I would second AndyMH's comment Lenovo Thinkpads are linux friendly and quite repairable. Though I've never had to repair any of mine. they just seem to keep going.

I was using Lenovo Thinkpads quite a lot in the past. As I know, there is no model in the Thinkpad line-up with 2x ram slots + replaceable ssd + replaceable wifi/bluetooth card... the T480 was the last one of its kind (as I know) and it is 6 years old now. Lenovo is out for me!

Thats how I got to know about the HP after the Framework laptops:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8lsUvil_S8

In the video, its the G9 and not the G10 but as far as I know, there is no change in repairablity. Just updated parts.

[kc1di]

I can't speak for the newer thinkpads but my older ones keep going. I've also had pretty good success with Dell's over the years. Never really had any hp laptops But know lots of people that do. Cheers!

[kc1di]

Thought this one may be of interest also.,
https://www.laptopmag.com/laptops/windo ... key-change

[AndyMH]

Interesting, but as the owner of several T430 I think a T480 is new

As has been said, they just don't break so I have no good reason to replace. Not many laptops these days give you three drive bays (msata, sata and you can put a caddy in the DVD bay - I use them all).

I think the last thinkpad with a socketed CPU was the T440p.

[TitForTat]

Thought this one may be of interest also.,
https://www.laptopmag.com/laptops/windo ... key-change

Thx... did not come across that. Will check this out for sure

Interesting, but as the owner of several T430 I think a T480 is new

As has been said, they just don't break so I have no good reason to replace. Not many laptops these days give you three drive bays (msata, sata and you can put a caddy in the DVD bay - I use them all).

I think the last thinkpad with a socketed CPU was the T440p.

I was using a lot of thinkpads in the past and I thought lenovo went the dark way with soldering on everything (and they did). But as mentioned above, the new t14 gen5 seems to change that.

[MurphCID]

I have no experience with Framework, but I do have experience withe business class HP laptops, and they are well made, somewhat heavy devices, that are of good quality. We got them at work before I retired and they were just great devices. I liked our old IBM (real IBM) thinkpads, but they finally died a long death, and we were using whatever got handed down before we all got new laptops. I dislike the Lenovo battery DRM issue, but they are also well made units.

The Elitebooks have a good selection of ports, and a very nice screen. Battery life is average. But they have very good build quality.

[TitForTat]

The Elitebooks have a good selection of ports, and a very nice screen. Battery life is average. But they have very good build quality.

Thanks for your input. As it seems for now

1. the HP offers the most bang for buck RIGHT NOW! It is the cheapest but still being decently build etc. with recent hardware.
2. The Lenovo T14 Gen5 maybe a tiny bit more expensive than the Framework 13 but offers AMD 8000 series cpu and best specs overall
3. The Framework 13 is slightly cheaper than the T14, offering AMD 7040 series cpu (just as the HP laptop) but due to all the additional upgrade options, it may offer some bigger savings in the long run (e.g. a motherboard/cpu upgrade if needed in 5 years time or later, that may be around 800€ instead of paying 1200-1500€ for a new device).

I guess it come down to the question, how valuable it is being able to upgrade that motherboard/cpu combo and the level of difficulty to take the machine apart (there, Framework is the best for sure).

If there would be the option to easily swap the motherboard/cpu on your older laptops, would you guys go for it? Would it be for you a compelling eason to by such laptop due to that feature?

[MurphCID]

Build quality on the HP is very good, with a nice keyboard feel as well. The HP Dev One is mostly a rebadged Elitebook. As for upgrading the motherboard/processor, to me at least, it is not one of the critical points. But for others it might be a major selling point. If you can get one of the HP's with the anti-glare screen, make sure you do so, those screens are bright and glossy otherwise. The one on the Dev One is blindingly bright.

[TitForTat]

Continuing my endeavour to slim down my device arsenal and making up my mind on what laptop to get, I decided to dive deeper into the topic of repairable/sustainable devices just a litte bit. Just documenting it here for further discussion and for anyone who has similar thoughts.

As some may have seen, that I expressed some interest in the new Tuxedo Sirius 16, I began to ask what I really want and need (my "wants" and "needs" are really far apart tbh ).

I made a quick table (for myself) to compare the two biggest rivals in that area (as far as I know and I do not account for the new Lenovo T14 Gen5 models, since confidence in Lenovo is declining on my end).

The huge difference was of course the price. While the HP EliteBook 845 G10 costs 1200€ (7840u, 1x32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 1920x1200 and one more USB-A port, WinPro) the Framework13 is ending up at approx. 2040€ if you configure it spec to spec with the HP. That is quite a difference and (imho) not worth it. The more sensible approach would be a configuration without RAM and SSD (so RAM would be 80€ used and I already own a 1TB SSD), no power cord (got one already), of course no Windows license but getting 2xUSB-C, 1xUSB-A and 1xHDMI module. This would be around 1500€, so a 300€ difference. The main question therefore lies on how this plays out regarding their promise to be repairable and some statements of others like "the las laptop ever" (or similar). As I think, such statements are sometimes misleading and some reviewers are over hyping everything a little bit.

Since I do not own the devices obviously, I tried to find good sources that would allow for some comparison. Notebookcheck was very handy, so I linked these two sources below (warning: its in German!):

https://www.notebookcheck.com/Framework ... 252.0.html
https://www.notebookcheck.com/HP-EliteB ... 699.0.html

[Edit] I figured that there is no point in showing the comparison table actually