Linux..... too expensive for me (in time)

[martienne]

I was going to spend a weekend installing Linux. Working in IT, I know that stressing is a good recipe for failure, and also that things tend to take longer than you expect.

I wanted to achieve a setup that was as close to my Windows setup as possible. I am very good at Windows, I use the computer for lots of advanced tasks, and I realise I'll need to keep Windows for programming, Photoshop, ripping and more.
I want to quit Microsoft for everyday computing (browsing, emails) on principle,
I want to be good at Linux.
But the price may be more than I can afford in terms of time. My block of free time, will soon be up and I'll have to focus fully on work without energy to pick this up in the evenings.

2.5 weeks later, spending 5 times more than I expected, I am nowhere near my goal.
I chatted to a few people who admitted that they had "given up" because Linux was simply too time consuming.

I don't want to, but how far do you take it, to give MS the finger and support Open source?
For a woman, I am already completely abnormal in my geekiness -- before considering Linux.
My friends don't even know what Linux is, and have absolutely zero understanding that I would want to spend free times working configuring a computer. I have neglected exercise and social activities to do this.

My difficulties getting anywhere, and the extreme irritation I feel over how difficult everything is means I am extremely close to chucking it in and cutting my losses. I am not a quitter, that's why I'm still trying.

Can anyone relate to this and how did you handle it?

[InkKnife]

Your mistake is trying to make a distro act like Windows. You would be spinning your wheels just as much trying to Make OSX act like Windows or make Windows act like OSX. Instead of trying to force Linux into a preconception based on Windows learn the best way to do things on Linux.
My advice would be to use an easy to use distro like Mint in as default a state as you can for awhile, do it part time and become familiar with the system. Then start customising once you know what you are doing.
I come from a background of using the MacOS and OSX. When I changed to Linux I did not waste time trying to make it like OSX. Every operating system is different and those differences have to be appreciated to use any of them effectively.

[martienne]

That IS good advice for sure.
But I want to be able to DO as much as possible from the things I can do in Windows.
I realise it won't be everything, but the normal day-to-day stuff.

[Pilosopong Tasyo]

I was going to spend a weekend installing Linux. ... I am very good at Windows, I use the computer for lots of advanced tasks, ...

I imagine it took you several years' worth of experience to attain the skill level you have with Windows right now? You don't go from zero to advanced skill in one weekend. And most likely you'll find yourself in the same boat if the situation is reversed (i.e., "I'm going to spend a weekend installing Windows. I am very good at Linux and use the computer for lots of advanced tasks, programming in Python, GIMP, ripping, and more...)

Can anyone relate to this and how did you handle it?

With research, patience, determination and being able to adapt to a different workflow. I quit Linux once, cira 2005, IMSMR. I blamed Linux for being hard to use and too different from my Windows workflow. But years later I realized that it's not that Linux wasn't ready for me, rather it was me not being ready to embrace Linux. My second attempt went much better after that, and never looked back since.

[Habitual]

I like you have 21 years in IT as well.
I was the "goto guy" everywhere I worked and some places I didn't.
I was always an "Under the hood" kind of geek.

One question that was always in the back of my mind... What makes this thing tick?
I bought a Mac G3 and after 30 minutes, I was mad that I couldn't use the enter key to start stuff on the desktop.
3 months later, I gave it away to two "little old ladies" who were trying to make a living on eBay using dial-up,
I sold all my computer gear.
That was 2006.

In 2008 I installed Ubuntu on a dual-boot laptop. That was the last time I installed Windows XP on a physical machine.
Then OpenSuSE.
Then LinuxMint.
Then Slackware.
Then LinuxMint.

The first time I tried to install Linux in the mid '90s, it/I was an utter and total failure.
We didn't called them 'newbies' then, it was "lamer". Too lame to even install Linux.
A Gnome desktop was a 3 day affair, downloading, compiling and installing.
Sound in Gnome took a whole day.

Today, I'm still the 'goto guy' at work.

I encourage you to count your progress as Success and don't be too quick to discard what you've learned up until this point.
You've overcome more than you realize. You installed it didn't you? You're ahead of the curve.
I couldn't wait to "boot out of Windows" after work and work on my Linux box.
It called me like a Lover.

Nothing worth having ever came easy.

Can you treat it like a hobby and devote some small slice of time on the Weekends for tuning your machine?

[shengchieh]

I suggest two machines. One window (your normal machine) and one linux (a practice machine). Use the latter for surfing and other light tasks. And get used to it before trying to switch everything.
I also recommend using applications that are cross platform, i.e., libreoffice, firefox, thunderbird, etc. Then when you do make the switch, it is easier.

You're in IT - I know you can handle a new OS. Just give it time. Be knowable first, then jump. When I shifted long ago, I did the same - one window box and one linux box with the window box having important stuffs.
time is money.

Sheng-Chieh

[English Invader]

I've found Windows a lot more time-consuming than Linux. I bought a laptop with W7 installed recently and after a day or so of faffing around with drivers, bloatware and all-round general nonsense I wiped the Windows, installed Mint and got my laptop the way I wanted it in the space of half an hour.

[Fred Barclay]

Stick with it, martienne! The desire to learn Linux is half the battle. You certainly seem like a knowledgeable computer user, and I have no doubt you'll be able to use Linux like a pro!

[phd21]

Hi martienne,

As was already mentioned, Linux is not MS Windows. But, for most users, they can be up and running in 15-20 minutes or less, and functional for all basic computer tasks, like Internet browsing, email, music, even Office Suite stuff through LibreOffice.

As a long time computer professional using MS Windows, and a power user too, I thought switching to Linux Mint was going to be interesting, and something new, and it is. I never really used Linux before. I did not think I would be able to do everything I did before in Ms windows in Linux Mint. I have since found out that not only can I do almost everything (>99%) that I could do before, (I am not a big gaming person) but I can do it faster and better than I could in MS Windows. I did not personally like the normal Mint "application launcher" style menu, so I right clicked the menu icon and chose the "classic menu', which is much more like MS Windows menu.

The one thing that can take a little time is choosing the correct version of Linux Mint that runs well on your hardware and that you like since there are 4 versions of Linux Mint: Cinnamon, Mate, KDE, and Xfce. Not all hardware will work well on each edition. I had to create 4 live DVD's and try each one before I decided that KDE would work on my hardware and that I liked. I was up and running with each edition within minutes and could do all the basic necessities even with an incorrect video driver setup. These are all great free operating systems. Although I really like Cinnamon, their video drivers would not work on my hardware, Xfce was too simplistic for me (but works well on older limited hardware), Mate was nice, but I wanted more, and KDE provided that for me, and I have grown to love it. It took me one day messing around with the various editions of Linux Mint before I found the one I liked, and at the time I had Ms Windows, that I could boot up whenever I wanted.

You are not a basic user, by your own admission, you are an advanced user of MS windows. I think that your frustration comes from the fact that you are used to knowing a lot in MS Windows, and being able to do whatever you want without asking for help, but not in Linux - yet. If you give yourself some time, that will change, but not instantly. I have already answered some of your posts, as have others, and provided good working solutions for you. And, you also have Ms Windows to use anyway.

When you first installed Linux Mint and joined this forum, and since you apparently have a time table limit, If you had mentioned that time is an issue, and provided a list of all the requirements that you must have, everyone here would have helped you accomplish that in much less time than two and half weeks.

There are numerous excellent Photoshop alternatives, (GImp, Inkscape, Blender3D, Krita, etc...), and Photoshop can run under Wine and or VirtualBox. "Ripping" can either be of music audio, or video (DVD, Blu-Ray) and both can easily be accomplished in Linux. Most of the Music players like Amarok, can easily "Rip" music CD's, and the CD/DVD burning applications can easily "rip" audio cd's and video DVD's (blu-ray discs too, with a little advice).

You did not mention what kind of programming languages that you use and for what kind of development, but I'm sure that can also be done in Linux Mint as well. I was able to install various MS Programming languages and software in Wine, and also in VirtualBox, no problem except the incredible amount of time MS development environments require to install in Ms windows or Linux Virtualbox and or Wine.

I would not give up, or let your frustration get the better of you. Do not wait to ask questions, everyone here will try to help you out as best as possible.

[Jedinovice]

OK, let me input here!

Stick with it and you can do it! Also, Linux, especially a distro such as Mint,is MUCH eaiser to maintain when you understand it. I spent fifteen years in IT - not a systems administarator, I wil grant, but I was installing OS's, application, building databases on a daily basis. I was even writing installation manuals for the flat file DB system we used - a total mess of a system! And this was with a Microsoft house.

OK, my hints and tips…

1) No way do you jump from Windows to Linux in a few days. When I decided ot realy bite Linux I bought a new, dirt cheap, laptop and kept my old atom machine form the old country on Windows XP and kept all important data on that machine I just used the new, Linux machine, for testing, learning and re-installing. Bear I mind that I started on Slackware! It was a smart move asn I blew Slackware up 4 times! But I was delieberately pushing the system, asking, "what happens if…" and Slackware lets you d that. Bugger to install software mind and, after a week trying to get Abiword installed I jumped to Mint! But you always give Linux proper time. The number one reason I find people jump back to Windows is that people do not give Linux a chance! You need to give Linux real time. Soooo…

2) Extent your experiment time by concentrating on building up a test enviornment. Can be no more than a Virtual Machine. I have been running up Kubuntu for testing of the upcoming Plasma 5 interface in a VM on this dual core atom machine with a total of 2GB of RAM. I am sure you have better hardware and spare a core and some hard drive space for a minimal Mint install. Otherwise, use some old hardware - or both! Keep Windows as your main use OS for now and phase from one to the other over time.

3) I get why you want a Windows like environment. That is why I jumped straight to KDE - and have no regretted it. But it is true that Linux is NOT Windows. It is actually much closer to a Mac in operation. All sorts of tricks that work in Windows will not fly in Linux. There is no registry. Instead, you have a plethora of text files. File extensions are optional. Linux is case sensitive. The security model is totally different… Trying to mold Linux to be like Windows is a non-starter. You have to learn a new system - as has been stated. But, for day to day operation, it's not hard. I was amazed how I could pick up Slackware Linux and use it for day to day basic operation almost immediately.

4) In Mint, Cinnamon and MATE are definitely the preferred GUIs but I would suggest you try out KDE. There are reasons. It is, arguably, the most Windows like of the Mint supported GUI"s (though XFCE looks a lot like XP!) being directly descended from the Windows 95 interface - which I also held made sense. Also, the system settings are in one place like Windows control panel. This means you can find the system set up and controls easily. It's scary for a non-techie user who gets bewildered with the mass of control settings but for a techie it's great. Everything in one place so no hunting around for "Where do I set XYZ?" This was a great help in my switch. Also, I think Dolphin is the best file manager going, full stop. But, obviously, preference carries a lot here. Still, with KDE, you will find a familiar Windows style GUI that means you can concentrate on this like shell scripts without learning an entirely alien GUI - though I accept all the Mint GUI's are Windows like to a large degree.

5) Do not go into the techie stuff FIRST! Start with basics. Get the OS installed, the hard drive partitioned (I never have data on the same drive as the OS - saves me hours when end up re-installing. - I never run upgrade - it's fresh install to upgrade for me) Get familiar with bread and butter operation. Get on the network go web browsing. Edit and image, produce a few text documents and spreadsheet. Use Linux as a general OS and get familiar with things work as a 'non-techie' level first. It builds confidence in Linux. I was astounded how I managed to do so much in KDE slackware before I had to do anything techie! You also have to understand how non-adobe and Microsoft apps work to get anything useful out of Linux and, again, mist users do not give it the time.

6) Prepare for the worst. Expect to blow up the OS. Sorry, but Linux - while more stable than Windows - will allow the user to do crazy things and blow things up. As you move into editing system files and creating complex shell scripts, expect trouble! Also have data stored on a separate partition to the OS and accept that re-installing is likely to be common as you learn! But, once I knew what I was doing, I happily wiped XP off the old netbook and installed first Slackware and, later, Mint, with no regrets! Then my wife took it off me because she loved Mint KDE!

7) Ask! There is no way you can move from total novice in Linux to system admin lever in a few weeks and no way you can do it without help! But the forums here are really, really good. The posters are knowledgeable and friendly in the main. I suggest you set up a learning enviornment, start with real basic stuff, and then focus on one system level activity you have to carry out and ask questions. I know a lot of the knowledgeable techies would be delighted to guide a fellow techie on low level stuff as they end up spending ages on the same old non-techie questions over and over again. Moving onto more detailed stuff will probably be refreshing.

CLI commands in Linux - not that I use them much myself - are much more complex and fiddly than Windows. But, conversely, the CLI in Linux is much, much more powerful. So there is is a much steeper learning curve but it you get more for your money. Though I do think Bell laboratory's choices of command names and syntax were cretinous. 'ls' for directory? 'grep' for find? 'finger' for locate user? Still, if you really learn the CLI you are halfway to learning C! No, seriously. *nix CLI commands came, in large part, from the development of C. Start with 'man man' at the terminal.

Expect to take around 6 months to become fully proficient in Linux operation at a CLI level. You can't short cut that so take measure to allow for it. Have fun. Linux is much nicer, more coherent and logical. Though the CLI command syntax, I contend, is really, really great… if you are C programmer!

I hope this helps and don't despair. There are lots of people to help here.

[jimallyn]

Like English Invader, I also find Windows more time consuming than Linux. I have given up on doing Windows support for my friends, and now I always suggest they try Linux. That way I know I won't have to spend all my time fooling around with their computer. If you have some "specialty" programs that only run on Windows, you may have some problems with those. Some might run in Wine, some will not. But if you just want to browse the web, do email, word processing, image editing, software development, and that sort of common thing that people do on Windows or Mac, Linux is just fine. For all the standard programs people use on Windows or Mac, there is a functional equivalent for Linux. Don't expect to use the exact same program on Linux that you used on Windows. If you absolutely must have Internet Explorer, or PhotoShop, or other proprietary software, then stick with Windows. If you don't mind spending a little time learning a program with a different name that will accomplish the same function, then Linux is for you. I started out, like many Linux users do, dualbooting. (Back in 2002.) If there was something I didn't know how to do in Linux, or I was in a hurry to get something done and couldn't spend any time learning a different way, I booted into Windows. For everything else, I used Linux. After a while, I found myself booting into Windows less and less often. Now my computer has only Linux on it, and I hope to never have the misfortune to have to use Windows again. Give it a little longer. You got this, martienne!

Back when I first got started in Linux, I turned my younger brother Tom on to it. Now he will never go back to Windows. (He started out on Xandros, which is what I was using at the time, but now he uses Mint, same as I do.) Tom showed it to his friend Phil, who took to it like a fish to water. My older brother Dave has heard me princess about Windows and singing the praises of Linux for years, and he finally asked me to install Linux on his computer. I told him to call me or email me if he had any problems, and I haven't heard a word. (And I do see him at a 5k run/walk we both do every week, so he would have had plenty of opportunities to let me know if he was having problems.) A guy I know from church didn't have a computer, so I installed Linux on an old laptop I had laying around and gave it to him. (Mint wouldn't run on this old computer, so I put MX on it.) Again, I told him to call me, or Facebook message me, or talk to me at church if he had any problems, and I have heard nothing from him, either. I did actually message him one time to ask if he had any questions or problems, and he told me no, everything was working just fine. You will get this figured out, and you will like it when you do. I'm sure of it.

[capivara]

I don't recognize this at all. I've installed Linux Mint for a number of people now, all of them former Windows users, some of them at age (a 78-year old woman stands out). Mint worked out-of-the-box for all of them. Well, almost - I installed some extra programs, according to their wishes and demands.

So, I wonder, what functionality doesn't work for you? After all, you only mentioned e-mail and browsing. If that's all you want, you don't need any in-depth knowledge at all, let alone time to grasp it.

Hans

[pacho37]

I don't know the specifics of the situation at hand but If your livelihood depends on certain programs specific to Windows (like Photoshop) and it has been so for some time already I don't think it is a great idea to go completely linux purely on ideological grounds. You will be frustrated especially if you don't have oceans of time to learn new software - linux itself is not more difficult than Windows, but learning Gimp for instance or getting programs run through Wine is another, potentially time-consuming, matter. Dual-boot is the most reasonable solution in that case (assuming you still want to use linux).
Anyway I hope this thread won't turn into another Linux vs Windows vicious circle, we've had enough of those already

[Pjotr]

My advice would be to use an easy to use distro like Mint in as default a state as you can for awhile, do it part time and become familiar with the system. Then start customising once you know what you are doing.

Absolutely agreed.

@martienne: you said "I want to quit Microsoft for everyday computing (browsing, emails)". Well, that's exactly what you can do with a default Mint.... No need to start messing with PPA's for things like rEFInd, for instance.

[Maik]

This is a p*ss-take, right? You work in IT and it's taken you 2.5 weeks to set Linux up "for everyday computing (browsing, emails)". This takes maybe a couple of hours and, as capivara said, you don't need any in-depth knowledge at all, let alone time to grasp it. Windows seems to work OK for you so you may be better sticking with it.

[martienne]

This is a p*ss-take, right? You work in IT and it's taken you 2.5 weeks to set Linux up "for everyday computing (browsing, emails)". This takes maybe a couple of hours and, as capivara said, you don't need any in-depth knowledge at all, let alone time to grasp it. Windows seems to work OK for you so you may be better sticking with it.

I've set it up ok?!
It takes 30 minutes (once you figure out how to solve GRUB and NVIDIA driver issues, which can easily take a day - on and off - if you are caught off guard. I hadn't even heard of GRUB)
But on the whole, no argument there.

The challenges is getting the box to a state that I feel as comfortable as I do in Windows, and can do all the things that seem to be possible in Linux - i.e. where I know there is adequate software that can do the job, or some tool or tweak.

And you can't compare me (a geek who occassionally programs, rips stuff and spends way to much time browsing) with somebody's 78 year old parents or grandparents as mentioned above.
The expectations are completely different. I am delighted that users like your grandparents etc are above are happy with Linux, but it just takes a bit more for me to be content!

As for what the problems are - just check the threads I've started! A few are solved, but most aren't. Anyone who's experienced and want a good laugh at the expense of a newbie, a woman, a blonde or whatever can have their fill....

The community is the coolest thing about Linux so far IMO. This forum particularly, the chat, the Swedish forum where some real Linux foxes hang out (although that forum crashes most of the time I try to post... just to add to my frustration).

@martienne: you said "I want to quit Microsoft for everyday computing (browsing, emails)". Well, that's exactly what you can do with a default Mint.... No need to start messing with PPA's for things like rEFInd, for instance.

That is a valid point Pjotr. I can be something of a perfectionist. Maybe that's playing in here.
My Windows machine is "perfect" (it's the same box). Like somebody who lived in the same house for 50 years and knows it inside out and has everything exactly where she wants it.

But to be honest, an out-of-the-box experience is not really what I hoped for anyway.

• I mean partly this was about giving MS the finger for their spying and entanglement with the NSA & co.
• It was about having an OS where I'm fully in charge and in control, with no possibility of being forced down a route that I disagree with, by MS.
• About the principle of privacy in computing.
• And about the fact that real techies know Linux. Although I'm now doing a more mgmt oriented jobs and no longer hands-on in IT, this is something I want to know and am embarrassed that I don't.
• It's about being future proof. Look what MS and NSA are up to today... Well 5, 10 years from now, with this trend... what's going to be the norm? When some extemely intrusive norm kicks in for real, you want to be able to wash your hands of MS completely for personal computing.

I'm prepared to compromise, of course! But if the compromise is that I essentially run Linux out of the box... then I don't think I'll become a big fan.

But to get to that point - To achieve this, I need to do basic stuff like setting up Open VPN or instance. Not there yet, since I'm not done with basic usability tweaks.

I imagine it took you several years' worth of experience to attain the skill level you have with Windows right now? You don't go from zero to advanced skill in one weekend.

Haha, very good point. No of course, it took me a few years and then a steady curve, even since then. I had my baptism of fire moment with Windows when I got a programming job I wasn't really qualified for, way back. Spent a year with heavy books in my bag everywhere I went, to squeeze in some reading at every opportunity. But it feels like 75% of Windows skills aren't transferrable to Linux, or even confuse things.

[cinnamoncoffee]

When I first tried to install Linux my wifi didn't work and I didn't know about this forum. I didn't know what a terminal is neither how to open it. I just somehow managed to download iso and try it live. I expected it would work out of the box the same way as Windows did. Well, I was completely overwhelmed and gave up for a year until my next attempt. By that time I already knew that something like a Linux community existed.
Then I was able to install Linux and after I managed to make wifi work, everything went smoothly. There was firefox, open office and I could easily download Skype and vlc for music and movies. I have reinstalled my Linux several times and always managed to get everything working in less than 30 min time. Yes, if you want to customize, get windows programs working with wine etc, it will take longer. But from what you said I understand that you just want basic Internet stuff and that should be easily done in half an hour. I am absolutely no it expert and I have no geeky friends. If I can do it, or should be a piece of cake for you! It just takes a few trial and error attempts and everything will be OK. I am a living evidence.
If you have some specific questions you can post them here and I'm sure people will help you!

Odoslané z G7-L01 pomocou Tapatalku

[cinnamoncoffee]

OK martienne, I didn't notice the other threads from you. I just supposed that you only need basic stuff because of your original post here.
You can ignore my previous post. I don't know how to delete it on mobile.

Odoslané z G7-L01 pomocou Tapatalku

[martienne]

OK martienne, I didn't notice the other threads from you. I just supposed that you only need basic stuff because of your original post here.
You can ignore my previous post. I don't know how to delete it on mobile.

Odoslané z G7-L01 pomocou Tapatalku

May be a matter of how people define "basic". A lot of people made the same assumption as you. Perhaps I shouldn't have phrased it that way.

Stick with it, martienne! The desire to learn Linux is half the battle. You certainly seem like a knowledgeable computer user, and I have no doubt you'll be able to use Linux like a pro!

Thanks for this encouragement, it hit a note!
The comment from another user made me thing about the blood, sweat and tears (well, at least one of them is true!) I shed for Windows when I started out in IT). But I thought those days were behind me forever....

Btw, noticing your flag, one major benefit of Linux is the 24/7 follow-the-sun, free support by enthusiasts.

[Ark987]

In my case it took me 12 years to ditch MS Windows, just about 8 months ago I started using Linux exclusively.

After struggling so many years and complaining of all the glitches that I found over the years with any Linux distro, I found a way to successfully migrate, however it requires time, effort and willingness.

First you need to know the Linux ecosystem works. How software is released, who's developing the software, why is being developed and where can you get the software. After you have a rough idea of what's going on and why Linux exists. Then you have to make a list of all the task that you want to do on Linux and I mean all, everything. If you need to connect to a VPN or play StarCraft Legacy of the Void you have to put it in your list! don't leave anything behind, otherwise you goals will be incomplete, you will not be satisfied with the end results and you will waste your time.

After you have the list of the task that you want to do, it will be very clear for you if you need a Desktop Environment or not.

Before digging into anything else, you have to research and test which Desktop Environment is convenient and stable for your taste. This step is mandatory, do not proceed if you are still unsure which one do you really like.

When you have your favorite DE, check if the distro that you are choosing is officially supporting your favorite DE. For example a bad choice would be selecting the default Ubuntu (Unity), then morph it into a full KDE installation and then expect that everything will work smoothly without the system demanding your precious time to fix mundane issues.

The next step is to expand the list of tasks that you want to complete on Linux, I would recommend use a mind mapping tool for it.

For each task you have to find, research and test the recommended software. The software that you choose for each task must satisfy your needs, at some point you may have to learn a new workflow, if you don't like it do not force it. The bless and the curse of Linux is the excessive amount of choice, my recommendation is try to always choose only 1 (one) software alternative for each task, do not accept duplicates (remember your time is precious).

When you have completed your task list, you can use this same list to measure your progress and see how far you can go.
If you find that many of your important tasks cannot be done in Linux because there are no viable alternatives then you have to take a realistic decision on what's best for you.

I have two examples of why someone would stay on Windows:

1. Windows games, they not always run smoothly under Wine. (You cannot play your existing Windows only games collection )
2. Computer Aided Translation tools, if you are a professional translator your choices are extremely limited to non-existent in Linux. (You cannot use Linux to do your job and make a living)