WOW Ubuntu is thinking of ditching it's Debian Base

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exploder
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Re: WOW Ubuntu is thinking of ditching it's Debian Base

Post by exploder »

Unless drastic changes take place Mint's main editions will stay with the Ubuntu base from what Clem has stated in the past. I personally like LMDE 2 but that is just me. I think the differences between LMDE and the main editions could change in time but at the moment the Ubuntu based editions are easier for people that have never used Linux before.

I am thankful the Debian based editions exist! For me LMDE 2 happens to get along better with my hardware and allows me to run Mint with Cinnamon. I look at things like this, if Ubuntu were to become impractical as a base we have LMDE to fall back on. It takes a lot of time and effort to build the Debian based editions, if more people were to start using them perhaps they would get more focus.

At the moment only a small percentage of users are running LMDE so more focus goes into the Ubuntu based editions. Clem and the other maintainers have a lot on their plate just maintaining the Ubuntu based editions, we should be thankful that they have continued with LMDE and went with the Debian stable base. With the stable base the Debian editions should be much better from a development point of view.

As it stands right now the changes proposed for Ubuntu are just talk and have not happened yet. Ubuntu tends to drop ideas that do not pan out, Ubuntu for Android comes to mind. Ubuntu abandoned the idea when they saw it was not gaining any traction. There have already been rumors that 16.04 may be released with both Unity 7 and 8 because Unity 8 might not be ready in time.

For now it's best not to worry about things that may or may not happen. Clem managed to overcome the obstacles Gnome 3 presented so it's pretty safe to say things will continue to go the direction the Mint community has enjoyed. These are all just opinions on my part, nothing more.
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Re: WOW Ubuntu is thinking of ditching it's Debian Base

Post by KBD47 »

For lack of a better word, Ubuntu is sometimes a bit 'flaky' with ideas, and tends to drop things, like Ubuntu One storage. I like their installer, and they are big enough that software developers often include them with the other big two desktops. But I am very glad we have Debian, it tends to be less flaky and less subject to change for the sake of change :-)
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Re: WOW Ubuntu is thinking of ditching it's Debian Base

Post by exploder »

KBD47, my thinking is similar. I am hoping the Debian base proves to be very stable with the added bonus of the latest version of Cinnamon.
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Re: WOW Ubuntu is thinking of ditching it's Debian Base

Post by KBD47 »

exploder wrote:KBD47, my thinking is similar. I am hoping the Debian base proves to be very stable with the added bonus of the latest version of Cinnamon.
I found both Debian Squeeze and Wheezy to be incredibly stable and reliable. I'm sure Jessie will be also. Jessie with Cinnamon (LMDE2) is just about perfect :-)
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Re: WOW Ubuntu is thinking of ditching it's Debian Base

Post by xenopeek »

I've looked some more into snappy and I'm pretty impressed with the idea (though I remain reserved). Information on Snappy Personal (as this topic is about) is hard to find, below is about Snappy Core (a minimal Ubuntu image for internet of things appliances and cloud use). I imagine this will all apply though.
  • snappy offers users a trivial way to roll back individual upgrades, something new Linux Mint users frequently ask about when they have some problem with an upgrade.
  • It offers developers an easy way to build packages and after uploading packages those will be available to users within minutes. Something developers also ask about on our forums ("how do I get my application in the repositories?"). snappy sounds a lot easier to build for than having to become a Debian maintainer.
  • It leverages Linux security technologies AppArmor and seccomp to implement a sandbox for each application. It has standard security templates that developers can use (and extend with additional rules if needed). Developers do not need to specify a security template to get the default confinement.
    • "AppArmor access is deny by default and apps are restricted to their app-specific directories, libraries, etc (enforcing ro, rw, etc)."
    • "seccomp is deny by default. Enough safe syscalls are allowed so that apps using the declared security template should work."
    In addition, as I read it, default confinement also limits network access to the client machine (i.e., no outgoing network access).
Over the next few weeks we'll likely see more news on this from the Ubuntu summit (UOS is planned for first week of May). Let's try and curb any urges to wear pointy aluminum foil hats till then :)

To clarify for anybody confused, Snappy Personal will be used on 15.10 in the Desktop Next spin—not for the other spins of 15.10. Desktop Next is the experimental Ubuntu spin for Unity 8 and Mir on the desktop. So Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu, and so on are all still .deb based for the next release.

It sounds fast given that snappy was just announced last December, but possibly Ubuntu 16.04 LTS will switch to Snappy Personal. That likely depends on how the Desktop Next 15.10 behaves. Then again Unity was made the default in less than a year since its first release. But that was on a development release (11.04) and a full year before the next LTS (12.04), leaving enough time to fix things for regular users.
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Re: WOW Ubuntu is thinking of ditching it's Debian Base

Post by exploder »

All very valid points!
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Re: WOW Ubuntu is thinking of ditching it's Debian Base

Post by exploder »

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Re: WOW Ubuntu is thinking of ditching it's Debian Base

Post by Pjotr »

exploder wrote:Snappy will not effect Linux Mint.

http://www.itworld.com/article/2914850/ ... story.html
Excellent news! I find these to be key quotes from that article:
Ubuntu has more than half a dozen official flavors and many more derivatives. One question this raises is how will official flavors like Kubuntu and major derivatives like Linux Mint be affected, if at all?

The team says that since they still need the .deb-based archive to build from there won’t be any affect on flavors and derivatives as they can build from that. And if such projects want to take advantage of Snappy then they can easily do that too.
Canonical will offer a traditional 16.04 Debian package edition and a Snappy desktop so users can choose whichever version they want. Since 16.04 will be LTS it will be critical for Canonical to not ‘touch’ the users who want to use the traditional desktop and at the same time offer an LTS release of Snappy to those who want to climb up the evolutionary ladder.

So those users who want the traditional desktop will be able to download it. And those who want security benefits and a much smoother, Android-like upgrade experience can migrate to the Snappy-based image.

Snappy users will also get more frequent updates to their applications, rather than waiting 6 months for the next Ubuntu release.
Snappy looks like welcome progress to me, but I would prefer to first start using it when it has matured (maybe in Ubuntu 18.04?).
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exploder
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Re: WOW Ubuntu is thinking of ditching it's Debian Base

Post by exploder »

Snappy looks like welcome progress to me, but I would prefer to first start using it when it has matured (maybe in Ubuntu 18.04?).
I share your opinion on this.
craig10x

Re: WOW Ubuntu is thinking of ditching it's Debian Base

Post by craig10x »

When Ubuntu 16.04 LTS is released...two versions will be available...The standard one and the "snappy personal" version which will finally bring a rolling ubuntu which will be able to update apps and stuff using the snappy packages much like stuff gets updated on your smart phone! And debs and ppas can still be installed as well for stuff not yet available in "snappy" packages...if you carefully read the article exploder linked you to, you will get the whole picture...

It won't affect mint in any way at all...and it would be up to Clem if he wants to take advantage of the opportunity that snappy core presents... :wink:
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Re: WOW Ubuntu is thinking of ditching it's Debian Base

Post by kromaz »

Update on the topic http://news.softpedia.com/news/Ubuntu-I ... 0083.shtml I'm glad to have read this part "One of the things said by the Ubuntu devs on Reddit was that the .deb based Ubuntu version is not going anywhere, and it will coexist, at least for the foreseeable future, with the Snappy version." Ubuntu has been known to change theirs minds, lets hope .debs stays for the long run.
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Re: WOW Ubuntu is thinking of ditching it's Debian Base

Post by craig10x »

That's good news for you mint users (i use to use mint but went back to ubuntu)...but in the long run, i think snappy is going to work out really nice and you will see other distros adopting it too...i wouldn't be surprised if in the future you see an optional mint "snappy edition" just like you have LMDE now...in fact, might even take it's place since snappy (both stable and development versions) will essentially be rolling distros... :wink:
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Re: WOW Ubuntu is thinking of ditching it's Debian Base

Post by Condorman »

Not worried at all about any of it tbh. Ubuntu is looking really good at the moment with a very strong release on the desktop, a great phone and some interesting plans. Mint is looking good with fingers in many pies to ensure its future. All looking extremely positive imho.
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Linux Mint and Snappy-packages

Post by midas »

Perhaps in the near future Ubuntu-Desktop editions will switch over to Snappy packages. There seems to be a lot of advantages as one can read in the link below:

http://www.itworld.com/article/2914850/ ... story.html

But what are the consequences for all Linux Mint editions based on Ubuntu?
Last edited by xenopeek on Thu May 14, 2015 7:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: same topic; merged here
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exploder
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Re: WOW Ubuntu is thinking of ditching it's Debian Base

Post by exploder »

Right now there are a lot of unanswered questions about Snappy. The press kind of jumped all over something that is not even close to making it to the desktop yet. Snappy is only working on Ubuntu phones right now as I understand and I have read that some are having problems with their phones re-starting all the time... I would rather wait, see the technology in wide spread use and go from there.

It's way too early to make any real decisions one way or the other about this technology.
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Re: Linux Mint and Snappy-packages

Post by Nilla Wafer »

midas wrote: what are the consequences for all Linux Mint editions based on Ubuntu?
Nothing! Both .deb and snappy package handlers will be available to Ubuntu users and the rest of us downstream. They're only talking about making snappy the "default" one, but the .deb version isn't going away.
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