I started a new topic because, skimming through others which seem to be similar, I found a lot of bootstrapping and back patting. Nothing wrong with that, of course...we all need encouragement...especially when using Linux!
To be honest, I'm struggling with Linux Mint, not due to mental capacity, but, to explain, think about this analogy:
It would be a waste of time for Stephen Hawking to spend 4 days trying to get his computer to talk to his printer, and he would probably get very frustrated with the situation - not because he was unable to understand it and eventually solve the problem, but because a seemingly trivial thing is taking his mind off his equations. He would like to print out his new theory on black hole evaporation, but can't.
And Roger Penrose used Windows, printed his theory, and is handing it out to students at the college gates...rubbing salt on the wound!
Or, just as likely, Hawking spent all day on tensor calculus, and would like to watch the game with a few beers, but can't, because he has to get his printer working...and his wife's moaning she can't print print out the fliers for the W.I. meeting, and the printer cost £200, and why doesn't it work?
That kind of scenario, although a caricature, seems to be overlooked by Linux experts sometimes; that users can be intelligent and skilled, but the hoops they have to jump through to do trivial things can be just a step too far...because they are already busy, not because they are stupid or lazy.
It's like having a set of screwdrivers made of chocolate - they work great as long as they're kept at the temperature of liquid helium, which requires a cryogenics lab: The collateral required to use the tool is 'large'.
I hope I will get over the problems I have, with some dogged determination, and probably a reinstall and start again, and I guess that's why we have the boostrapping threads, where people congratulate each other on installing their printer and getting it to work. A printer install is like an initiation ceremony, your graphics card may not work properly, and your CPU overheats because you have no fan control, but at least you can print now, and are a member of the club...
So, I am being a bit cheeky, but there is a message in my words which I hope doesn't go unnoticed ;-D
New user's observation
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ULTRA001
New user's observation
Last edited by LockBot on Wed Dec 28, 2022 7:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New user's observation
Your story is somewhat common for users that come to Linux with expectations that the manufacturers that they gave their hard earned money to would support Linux...
They expect all their current hardware devices and peripherals to work "out of the box" with Linux, despite none of those working out of the box on a fresh install of Windows. You likely have a pile of driver CDs for your current hardware, which on a fresh install of Windows you would need after or even during installation to make all the hardware work properly. For some hardware you will likely have to find and download the driver yourself.
They expect all the manufactures of their current hardware to have top-notch Linux support, even for older hardware with current Linux versions. But just like with Windows, manufacturers are spotty at best and you'll find that some of your hardware works perfectly and some of your hardware doesn't. No different from Windows, where if you move from one Windows version to a next one you might find your older hardware is no longer supported and doesn't get a new driver which leads to all kinds of hiccups and crashes.
On Linux most drivers are included in the Linux kernel and you don't need to install anything. But not all manufacturers are as good at supporting Linux. Some don't want to include their driver in the Linux kernel, leading to you having to go "the windows way" (scouring the archaic website of the manufacturer to try and find that elusive download link for a probably years old driver). Some don't have drivers for Linux at all. Some even refuse to share the information needed to write the drivers with others, so nobody can make a good driver on their own either (they might cobble something together, but it will be lacking key features--like good power management).
Now, when you next buy hardware you can make a difference: (1) you can buy hardware that has good support from its manufacturer on Linux, so it works "out of the box"; and (2) that in turn supports that manufacturer and thus starts a cycle of Linux support leading to bigger sales leading to bigger Linux support and so on and so on. Again, no different then when you would be shopping for Windows hardware and confirm the manufacturer has good support for your Windows version.
Now it can require a little more searching and asking for help to get all hardware working, but that's what this forum (and other Linux fora) is for
We are all eager for the day that good Linux support from manufacturers is ubiquitous, but we're not quite there yet. Especially laptops and things like printers remain troublesome (you'd think somebody would wake up and corner the market...).
Not to invalidate your observation, but perhaps this sheds some light on things.
They expect all their current hardware devices and peripherals to work "out of the box" with Linux, despite none of those working out of the box on a fresh install of Windows. You likely have a pile of driver CDs for your current hardware, which on a fresh install of Windows you would need after or even during installation to make all the hardware work properly. For some hardware you will likely have to find and download the driver yourself.
They expect all the manufactures of their current hardware to have top-notch Linux support, even for older hardware with current Linux versions. But just like with Windows, manufacturers are spotty at best and you'll find that some of your hardware works perfectly and some of your hardware doesn't. No different from Windows, where if you move from one Windows version to a next one you might find your older hardware is no longer supported and doesn't get a new driver which leads to all kinds of hiccups and crashes.
On Linux most drivers are included in the Linux kernel and you don't need to install anything. But not all manufacturers are as good at supporting Linux. Some don't want to include their driver in the Linux kernel, leading to you having to go "the windows way" (scouring the archaic website of the manufacturer to try and find that elusive download link for a probably years old driver). Some don't have drivers for Linux at all. Some even refuse to share the information needed to write the drivers with others, so nobody can make a good driver on their own either (they might cobble something together, but it will be lacking key features--like good power management).
Now, when you next buy hardware you can make a difference: (1) you can buy hardware that has good support from its manufacturer on Linux, so it works "out of the box"; and (2) that in turn supports that manufacturer and thus starts a cycle of Linux support leading to bigger sales leading to bigger Linux support and so on and so on. Again, no different then when you would be shopping for Windows hardware and confirm the manufacturer has good support for your Windows version.
Now it can require a little more searching and asking for help to get all hardware working, but that's what this forum (and other Linux fora) is for
We are all eager for the day that good Linux support from manufacturers is ubiquitous, but we're not quite there yet. Especially laptops and things like printers remain troublesome (you'd think somebody would wake up and corner the market...).Not to invalidate your observation, but perhaps this sheds some light on things.
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ULTRA001
Re: New user's observation
Not quite Xenopeek, but thanks for your reply.
It was really about how Linuxers can be demeaning, assuming that others are dense, when it's just that their interests lie in areas other than tweaking around with a quirky, poorly supported, operating system.
I want Mint to work, and will persevere with it because I believe that we need an alternative to the attempt at world domination by MS. However, it could be easier I think. I mean, what is CUPS? it's like something from the 70s/80s, unfortunately I'm old enough to have seen that stuff. Why am I using Firefox to install a printer, it's like a terminal on a PDP11 or whatever that DEC monstrosity was called?
By the way, the printer did work, the Canon drivers worked perfectly, but now it doesn't, and I have the 'cannot connect to localhost:631' problem, which seems quite common if you Google it.
I posted a plea for help, so lets see where it gets me!
It was really about how Linuxers can be demeaning, assuming that others are dense, when it's just that their interests lie in areas other than tweaking around with a quirky, poorly supported, operating system.
I want Mint to work, and will persevere with it because I believe that we need an alternative to the attempt at world domination by MS. However, it could be easier I think. I mean, what is CUPS? it's like something from the 70s/80s, unfortunately I'm old enough to have seen that stuff. Why am I using Firefox to install a printer, it's like a terminal on a PDP11 or whatever that DEC monstrosity was called?
By the way, the printer did work, the Canon drivers worked perfectly, but now it doesn't, and I have the 'cannot connect to localhost:631' problem, which seems quite common if you Google it.
I posted a plea for help, so lets see where it gets me!
Re: New user's observation
Ooo Oooo, I can answer that one:I mean, what is CUPS? it's like something from the 70s/80s, ....
On my MacBook running Yosemite CUPS is at version 2.0.0. On my Xubuntu 14.04 desktop it's at 1.7.2. Same CUPS different versions.CUPS is the standards-based, open source printing system developed by Apple Inc. for OS® X and other UNIX®-like operating systems.
Now for OSX there's a lovely little dmg file that the user can download and double click and as my grandmother used to say, Ba-Da-Bing ( I have no idea why my grandmother would say that ) you've installed the driver for that printer.
Amazing what happens when a hardware maker considers your platform worthy.
Please add a [SOLVED] at the end of your original subject header if your question has been answered and solved.
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Pjotr
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Re: New user's observation
Linux Mint is not quirky at all. And certainly not poorly supported: this forum for instance, is one of the best support fora I know.ULTRA001 wrote:It was really about how Linuxers can be demeaning, assuming that others are dense, when it's just that their interests lie in areas other than tweaking around with a quirky, poorly supported, operating system.
With an attitude like that: probably nowhere. And I don't assume that you're dense; only impolite. If you want help, don't bash something that you clearly don't understand yet.I posted a plea for help, so lets see where it gets me!
Last edited by Pjotr on Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New user's observation
The same scenario could also apply to a Linux user trying Windows for the first time! Why aren't my drivers installed by default? Why do I have to install all my applications? Why does it take half the day and countless rebooting to update the system? Why don't all of my updates come from one place? Why do I have to install all my codecs from different sites? Why are the apps I am trying to install asking me if I want other things installed too? Why does Windows use more disk space for just the OS than the distro I installed that was complete, applications and all?
It works both ways!
It works both ways!
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ULTRA001
Re: New user's observation
Hi all,
thanks for your replies.
I didn't mean to be rude by 'let's see where it gets me!' I meant only that, no irony implied - which is unusual ;-D
My observation was meant as an honest, and amusing, absolute and abstract, from my perspective as an engineer. Not a computer engineer, but one who thinks that installing a printer should be a mundane, day to day thing.
Shouldn't it?
I asked the question: why do we use a we interface to install a printer, and made a joke about the old DEC machines, it seems anything like that can be taken taken badly....
But, that unfortunate situation is one of the features of my essay, and kind of confirmed my feelings about things.
Andy
thanks for your replies.
I didn't mean to be rude by 'let's see where it gets me!' I meant only that, no irony implied - which is unusual ;-D
My observation was meant as an honest, and amusing, absolute and abstract, from my perspective as an engineer. Not a computer engineer, but one who thinks that installing a printer should be a mundane, day to day thing.
Shouldn't it?
I asked the question: why do we use a we interface to install a printer, and made a joke about the old DEC machines, it seems anything like that can be taken taken badly....
But, that unfortunate situation is one of the features of my essay, and kind of confirmed my feelings about things.
Andy
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DrHu
Re: New user's observation
Whether or not anyone seems condescending is always a matter of opinion
Your caricatures of Q& A can be funny or weird (academic-seeming talking points). but we get it: including people who might be just as new or unsure
The caricature is of user support and the results used to be
Q. I can`t get a prompt character on the screen
A. Hit any key
Q. Where is the any key
Now that is old style;: people have discovered (if they did not understand English) that any key meant any of the keys on the keyboard
--that`s not a fault of the responder, it`s more of a normal human communication gap (not easily erased no matter how smart or dumb either Q (wuestioner) or A (responder) is in their own style..
Your caricatures of Q& A can be funny or weird (academic-seeming talking points). but we get it: including people who might be just as new or unsure
The caricature is of user support and the results used to be
Q. I can`t get a prompt character on the screen
A. Hit any key
Q. Where is the any key
Now that is old style;: people have discovered (if they did not understand English) that any key meant any of the keys on the keyboard
--that`s not a fault of the responder, it`s more of a normal human communication gap (not easily erased no matter how smart or dumb either Q (wuestioner) or A (responder) is in their own style..
Re: New user's observation
You can not come into a Linux forum, insult the way things are and expect pleasant responses. Linux is not Windows. Everyone here is more than happy to help you if you really want help. It would be no different if one of us went to a Windows forum and made similar remarks.
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ULTRA001
Re: New user's observation
Hi exploder,
I mean no offence to anyone, and you are right. People are people, and in a way, I am criticising someone's work, or at least something they like. I know what it's like, I deal with it every day.
DrHu,
The caricatures were mainly meant to highlight the fact that a seemingly simple thing, which I have taken for granted in the past; installing a printer, looks like it will mean a clean install and start again. And, that, metaphorically speaking, it seems like having to rebuild your car engine after you put fuel in the tank. Maybe I put the wrong fuel in, I don't know.
As for condescending, there are examples of that in various blogs, I don't think you can deny that. There are good ones, and there are bad, and, my, and many others fear is that, to ask a question will invoke a condescending response, and that puts people off. It's why people by cameras online, because they don't want to get laughed at in the camera shop for asking a dumb question.
Anyway, all this is by the by really. I do like Linux Mint, and I will persevere with it, even though, at the moment, it is extremely frustrating for me.
Andy
I mean no offence to anyone, and you are right. People are people, and in a way, I am criticising someone's work, or at least something they like. I know what it's like, I deal with it every day.
DrHu,
The caricatures were mainly meant to highlight the fact that a seemingly simple thing, which I have taken for granted in the past; installing a printer, looks like it will mean a clean install and start again. And, that, metaphorically speaking, it seems like having to rebuild your car engine after you put fuel in the tank. Maybe I put the wrong fuel in, I don't know.
As for condescending, there are examples of that in various blogs, I don't think you can deny that. There are good ones, and there are bad, and, my, and many others fear is that, to ask a question will invoke a condescending response, and that puts people off. It's why people by cameras online, because they don't want to get laughed at in the camera shop for asking a dumb question.
Anyway, all this is by the by really. I do like Linux Mint, and I will persevere with it, even though, at the moment, it is extremely frustrating for me.
Andy
Re: New user's observation
I have had my fair share of frustration, and can certainly understand where you are coming from there! 
With a little patience you will get the issue figured out and later on you will think how easy it was. The question about your printer is not so different than the problem I had with mine 11 or so years ago! I had a Lexmark printer/scanner that I struggled with for weeks to get it working... I later traded it to my brother for an HP!
I did get the thing to work though and gained some valuable knowledge in the process. Things like Android, Steam, etc have pushed for better support from hardware vendors and we are slowly getting there. At least you printer manufacturer appears to have good support for Linux, it's just a matter of figuring out the right steps to take to have it working properly.
I am glad you are not just giving up, that says a lot!
With a little patience you will get the issue figured out and later on you will think how easy it was. The question about your printer is not so different than the problem I had with mine 11 or so years ago! I had a Lexmark printer/scanner that I struggled with for weeks to get it working... I later traded it to my brother for an HP! I did get the thing to work though and gained some valuable knowledge in the process. Things like Android, Steam, etc have pushed for better support from hardware vendors and we are slowly getting there. At least you printer manufacturer appears to have good support for Linux, it's just a matter of figuring out the right steps to take to have it working properly.
I am glad you are not just giving up, that says a lot!
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deleted
Re: New user's observation
7 years ago, as an experiment, I installed Linux on the "primary" desktop home computer. (I also have Linux on my laptop)
There have been very few "quirks". There are 3 of us on it. Myself (who is a "determined" user with no *nix experience before '03) and 2 kids under 16 who just want it to work.
I spend less time on that machine than I do on my wife's non-Linux laptop. (That makes us a 3 computer household)
Both the desktop and the laptop are pretty vanilla pcs. The desktop has a dedicated NVIDIA graphics card while the laptop is ATI.
The kids like Linux since there's nothing they can do "to not make it boot" since they don't have sudo privileges. I like it since they don't infect the Intranet with malware/viruses. Printers work (even multifunction), bluetooth works and wireless (Broadcom) works.
My wife, on the other hand, has to reboot her machine quite often due to updates, monitor her cpu heat, scan for viruses and remember not to turn it off in the middle of an update while shutting down.
-Z
There have been very few "quirks". There are 3 of us on it. Myself (who is a "determined" user with no *nix experience before '03) and 2 kids under 16 who just want it to work.
I spend less time on that machine than I do on my wife's non-Linux laptop. (That makes us a 3 computer household)
Both the desktop and the laptop are pretty vanilla pcs. The desktop has a dedicated NVIDIA graphics card while the laptop is ATI.
The kids like Linux since there's nothing they can do "to not make it boot" since they don't have sudo privileges. I like it since they don't infect the Intranet with malware/viruses. Printers work (even multifunction), bluetooth works and wireless (Broadcom) works.
My wife, on the other hand, has to reboot her machine quite often due to updates, monitor her cpu heat, scan for viruses and remember not to turn it off in the middle of an update while shutting down.
-Z
Re: New user's observation
Nice! My youngest son liked to press the power button constantly when he was little. He did it a couple times to my wife's Windows computer and corrupted the file system. After re-installing Windows for her we put her tower where he could not reach it. My wife caught him pressing the power button on my computer and asked me if I was going to do something about it? I told her, why, he isn't hurting anything. Linux can take a lot of abuse!
Both my younger boys have had a computer to use since they were around 3. They run Linux at home and now that they are both in school they use Windows there. They seem comfortable with any desktop environment I have loaded for them. The kid's surprise me sometimes by doing some pretty advanced things without ever asking any questions. My 9 year old installs his own games and configures them and he never asked me how to set them up.
The kids know more about Linux, Windows and the MacOS than most adults I know! A few years ago when I almost lost my sight, my at the time 6 year old son helped me install a Gnome distro because I needed it's accessibility features to be able to use a computer at all. My youngest kids have used a variety of desktop environments depending on the hardware I had available at the time, they really don't care about DEs at all, for them it's all about the software they can run.
The kids have an advantage that many of us never had, they never got used to one particular operating system. To them it's all just software, they do not have a Windows or Linux mindset so they are comfortable with whatever they have available to use.
Both my younger boys have had a computer to use since they were around 3. They run Linux at home and now that they are both in school they use Windows there. They seem comfortable with any desktop environment I have loaded for them. The kid's surprise me sometimes by doing some pretty advanced things without ever asking any questions. My 9 year old installs his own games and configures them and he never asked me how to set them up.
The kids know more about Linux, Windows and the MacOS than most adults I know! A few years ago when I almost lost my sight, my at the time 6 year old son helped me install a Gnome distro because I needed it's accessibility features to be able to use a computer at all. My youngest kids have used a variety of desktop environments depending on the hardware I had available at the time, they really don't care about DEs at all, for them it's all about the software they can run.
The kids have an advantage that many of us never had, they never got used to one particular operating system. To them it's all just software, they do not have a Windows or Linux mindset so they are comfortable with whatever they have available to use.
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deleted
Re: New user's observation
Yep.
Everything becomes a tool.
That is, the OS is irrelevant, you choose the application that gets the job done.
BTW.. I did give my youngest (11) a Linux virtual machine to care and feed
-Z
Everything becomes a tool.
That is, the OS is irrelevant, you choose the application that gets the job done.
BTW.. I did give my youngest (11) a Linux virtual machine to care and feed
-Z
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furbs
Re: New user's observation
I understand where you're coming from. You know yourself why it's aggravating, and you said so - because you take your computer's function for granted. We don't appreciate what we take for granted. I know, it's never easy being a beginner again. The experience can be educational and humbling, or annoying and irritating. Fortunately, you have a choice. The folks on this forum have helped make my transition to Mint a lot easier.
Re: New user's observation
it's a Brand New Installexploder wrote:The same scenario could also apply to a Linux user trying Windows for the first time! Why aren't my drivers installed by default? Why do I have to install all my applications? Why does it take half the day and countless rebooting to update the system? Why don't all of my updates come from one place? Why do I have to install all my codecs from different sites? Why are the apps I am trying to install asking me if I want other things installed too? Why does Windows use more disk space for just the OS than the distro I installed that was complete, applications and all?
- the Ethernet needs a driver
- the Audio card needs a driver
- the Video card is running in fail-safe mode
wadda Ya Mean - have to install drivers, from this disk??.
- but with a Linux O/S, there is kernel regressions
Please edit your original post title to include [SOLVED] - when your problem is solved!
and DO LOOK at those Unanswered Topics - - you may be able to answer some!.
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Pjotr
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Re: New user's observation
....against which the default settings of Mints Update Manager protect us, at least during the lifetime of 13 and 17.x....Pierre wrote:but with a Linux O/S, there is kernel regressions
Tip: 10 things to do after installing Linux Mint 21.3 Virginia
Keep your Linux Mint healthy: Avoid these 10 fatal mistakes
Twitter: twitter.com/easylinuxtips
All in all, horse sense simply makes sense.
Keep your Linux Mint healthy: Avoid these 10 fatal mistakes
Twitter: twitter.com/easylinuxtips
All in all, horse sense simply makes sense.
Re: New user's observation
Stop buying hardware from manufacturers that are hostile to Linux and open source implementations.
I doesn't get any simpler than that.
Don't mean to go all "Stallman" on you, but it's not a brick wall you're facing, but an armed barricade.
I doesn't get any simpler than that.
Don't mean to go all "Stallman" on you, but it's not a brick wall you're facing, but an armed barricade.
Re: New user's observation
While I agree with that, users new to Linux bring their existing hardware. The advice holds for their next purchase though.MartyMint wrote:Stop buying hardware from manufacturers that are hostile to Linux and open source implementations.
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ULTRA001
Re: New user's observation
Hi All,
My kids prefer Linux because, when I installed it on the laptop a few months ago it was like it gained an extra GHz on it's CPU clock.
The wife is pretty much oblivious to any differences...
I wanted that printer, a Canon, for a reason. I want it because it has a photo print and scan quality which isn't available in another printer at that price. I have a soft spot for HP, the old HP anyway, because I always liked their test equipment, and the history the company is interesting, I have a friend works in the R&D dept. there...and I used to run a sideline in repairing and reconditioning their computers (9000 series etc.), but, their printers? Not for me.
Can I say that the Canon drivers were easy to find and download. What caused me an issue at the first install stage was the fact that, for an unknown reason, Mint would not accept my password to run the driver.
I later found that I could use ./ and the drivers installed and everything worked. Even printing photos from GIMP. Everything was working on Sunday too.
Monday, no printing and 'Firefox can't connect to the server at localhost:631'
And that is where I'm stuck.
Andy
My kids prefer Linux because, when I installed it on the laptop a few months ago it was like it gained an extra GHz on it's CPU clock.
The wife is pretty much oblivious to any differences...
I wanted that printer, a Canon, for a reason. I want it because it has a photo print and scan quality which isn't available in another printer at that price. I have a soft spot for HP, the old HP anyway, because I always liked their test equipment, and the history the company is interesting, I have a friend works in the R&D dept. there...and I used to run a sideline in repairing and reconditioning their computers (9000 series etc.), but, their printers? Not for me.
Can I say that the Canon drivers were easy to find and download. What caused me an issue at the first install stage was the fact that, for an unknown reason, Mint would not accept my password to run the driver.
I later found that I could use ./ and the drivers installed and everything worked. Even printing photos from GIMP. Everything was working on Sunday too.
Monday, no printing and 'Firefox can't connect to the server at localhost:631'
And that is where I'm stuck.
Andy