Linux for everyone? ... 10 years on ...

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Durandal

Linux for everyone? ... 10 years on ...

Post by Durandal »

Year 2004 - I bought Suse Professional Pro, but gave up since it required too much techie knowledge to get everything working out of the box. Easy to install, but no driver support for my printer and I couldn't get online, despite my 'hard' external 56K modem.

Fast forward >>> April 2015 ...

I wanted to experiment with different distros, outlined below:

All relate to the most current 64-bit releases:

OpenSuse - Successful install, but YAST didn't recognise my Virgin Broadband router, so no network. With no access to online support, I de-installed. No problems.

Debian - install process too complex, concerned about taking a partitioning step that might damage my Windows installation, so cancelled.

Ubuntu - easy install and recognised my network, so ready access to on line support. Immediate issue - Menu bar on Firefox was only available when mouse cursor at the top edge of screen, otherwise disappeared. I like my Menu bar, usual options to get it back permananently didn't work. Disable ubuntu add-ons, no fix. Updated to latest Firefox version via software center ... no fix. Visited ubuntu forums - the concensus seemed to be there was no easy fix, one suggestion clearly beyond a newbie's understanding. One poster had spent over 2 hours trying to fix this 'out of the box' issue.

Ubuntu and other linux distro forums full of frustrated users who cannot see the right scroll bar easily in Firefox. Lots of techie fixes involving third party software and complex terminal window commands - Linux commands mean nothing presently, the reason for re-visiting Linux.

Frustrated, I de-installed Ubuntu and now the problem. During install, Ubuntu prompted to change present partition scheme. I should have known better, but I went with it. Now my Lenovo Onekey recovery doesn't work - it doesn't recognise the recovery partition.

LinuxMint - installed easy like Ubuntu, same issue with Firefox menu bar, but the usual fix worked. Hard to see right scroll bar still an issue though.

My question for discussion is this ...

10 years on, using Linux still seems somewhat challenging and frustrating for newbies. Out of the box, there are issues that will put Windows users off. I could live without the Firefox menu bar, as long as it appears temporarily at least. But the right scroll bar - so thin and barely distinguishable?

The partition issue - I should have been more savvy, my bad. But I was using YUMI and the ISO files and thought I was installing the Linux Distros onto my bootable USB flash drive. Of all the linux distros, only Linux Mint did install on the right device, OpenSuse and Ubuntu both installed on my hard drive.

Going forward - since I'm confident my Mint install is on my USB device, this seems like a great learning environment. I have a sense that Linux still isn't an easy leap for semi-techie Windows users. I pity people who are completely new to computers, with no techie knowledge whatsoever - that's on any platform! I guess we all need to have techie friends - just a call away or via community forums.

So, my advice to anyone trying Linux for the first (or second) time, is tread lightly. Don't take steps (like I did with the Ubuntu partitioning scheme) that may have an impact on your Windows system (assuming dual boot scenarios). Take a deep breath - despite the user friendly front end, there's a steep learning curve in terms of meaningfully understanding the OS - true of any OS. And persevere ...

I'm sticking with LinuxMint for the learning process,would be nice to see the scroll bar issue addressed right out of the box ... next release.

Durandal :)
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Pierre
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Re: Linux for everyone? ... 10 years on ...

Post by Pierre »

been using some sort of Linux O/S for over Ten Years, now.
- it's definitely become easier to use, than it was Ten Years ago. ..

partitioning for win_xp is a cinch, but for any other winX versions, it requires a little prep work on the win side, first.
- just to make things a little more smooth :o

you don't uninstall a Linux O/S - unlike a win O/S - just overwrite it with another Linux O/S. ..
- keeping the partitions, the same, as with the old Linux O/S.

and have never seen any issue with the Firefox menu bar. .. ..
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Please edit your original post title to include [SOLVED] - when your problem is solved!
and DO LOOK at those Unanswered Topics - - you may be able to answer some!.
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Re: Linux for everyone? ... 10 years on ...

Post by Pjotr »

About the Firefox right scroll bar: why not give this a shot (apparently not just for colours, but also for size):
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefo ... crollbars/

Firefox menu bar back, surely isn't too difficult: right-click mouse on top of Firefox (not quite on top, but below the window buttons) - tick: Menu bar

For the rest: enjoy Linux Mint! :)
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DeMus

Re: Linux for everyone? ... 10 years on ...

Post by DeMus »

Year 2004 - I bought Suse Professional Pro, but gave up since it required too much techie knowledge to get everything working out of the box.
contradictio in terminis.

Either it works out of the box and you're done without having to do anything, or it doesn't work and you need to do some/several/a lot of things to make it work. But then it still won't work out of the box.

Just a small lesson in English, sorry for that.
Just carry on.
Durandal

Re: Linux for everyone? ... 10 years on ...

Post by Durandal »

Hi Pjotr

Many thanks for sharing the scroll bar extension info. I how have clearly visible scroll bars.

Another great tip! :D

Durandal
Durandal

Re: Linux for everyone? ... 10 years on ...

Post by Durandal »

Hi Pjotr

just to clarify - getting the Menu Bar up in LM was easy, the usual route - as you describe. My comment was in relation to the latest Ubuntu. Might seem like a small thing, but I uninstalled Ubuntu once I realised I didn't even have that control of how I prefer to work with Firefox.

So far, delighted with LM

Durandal
Durandal

Re: Linux for everyone? ... 10 years on ...

Post by Durandal »

Hi DeMus

I stand corrected :roll:

You're right, what I meant to say is that having installed it 'out of the box', although the installation was straightforward, a great deal of techie tweakin' seemed necessary, and I wasn't courageous or determined enough at that time, to attempt to learn it.

10 years on, and having found a linux distribution that seems 'friendly' and has behaved well from my install - (having internet access right from the off is a great start) - I'm feeling more determined to learn linux this time around. E.g. my printer wasn't working immediately - but a quick post on the LM forum, and it's up and running.

I realise if I will have to learn to be comfortable under the hood, as I was with Windows, and learn more about the command line stuff and how it all comes together. Bit daunting, but learning anything new, can feel thus.

Cheers
DrHu

Re: Linux for everyone? ... 10 years on ...

Post by DrHu »

Personalty, I don't care about putting windows users off
--I don't even think they are a market for a Linux OS
  • The problem for any computer user, whether it is a desktop, notebook, tablet or a a smartphone: now that Google is optimizing searches for smartphones/devices or as they indicate ..mobile friendly
    is that few if any users are interested in the behind-the-scenes operations, they prefer it to be all in and direct to the interface they seem to be using
I used Suse (the retail box) previously and apart from some packaging issues (workstation, developer, server ) selections: I used a custom install and individually picked the selections I wanted or I used the smallest install and deleted what I didn't want..
  • If I was using an RPM based Linux OS, I would probably be using Fedora, these days..
I am not necessarily a fan of Ubuntu or Ubuntu based distributions, but I do like Debian's APT package management as opposed to RPM
--although they both have either GUIS based or faster terminal based utilities that work well with the package manager(s)
  • I have in the meantime gotten used to Gnome style
    --though I did prefer KDE for its customization (all GUI based): I dropped out of KDE from Fedora as it was a little problematic (PLASMA) when first released, and at that time I had already used Mint..
However, I do appreciate both RedHat (Fedora) and Ubuntu efforts to advance the Linux OS style and function.
--they are both working on improving Linux OS as they see fit, and we can accept that or not

For the moment I use the XFCE Mint 17X version, as I like the quicker speed of the desktop under XFCE
--miss some GUI functions (menu edits, users), but I can live without them for the text edit options that exist..
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Re: Linux for everyone? ... 10 years on ...

Post by Neil Edmond »

Durandal wrote:10 years on, using Linux still seems somewhat challenging and frustrating for newbies.
I beg to differ, at least a little. For a "newbie" (someone who has not used any OS before) Linux is no more challenging to learn than is Windows, or Mac for that matter. Windows can be very challenging for a newbie.

The real difference is that few people ever have to install Windows, or Mac OS. It simply comes pre-installed on the system they have purchased. Then begins the change of learning "to use the computer" they will say, when they actually mean learning to use the pre-installed OS.

Then comes Linux, where most end users will have to actually install the OS, bringing in a whole different and new set of challenges that many folks simply don't believe they can overcome. If one decides to try and keep Windows in a dual boot configuration with Linux, then they've taken on a whole 'nother level of challenges.

Anyway, after all that rambling, I have a case to prove my point. Just recently set up a laptop for my 8 year old niece who has never used anything other than Windows computers, and Android phones. I installed Linux on an old laptop and gave it to her without any instruction or demonstration, just handed it over to her, and away she went using Linux without any questions or issues.

Point is, Linux is not challenging or frustrating to use. The challenge come from installing. But thank goodness, Linux is way easier to install than Windows. This coming from someone who has installed Windows dozens of times.
DeMus

Re: Linux for everyone? ... 10 years on ...

Post by DeMus »

Durandal wrote:Immediate issue - Menu bar on Firefox was only available when mouse cursor at the top edge of screen, otherwise disappeared.
LinuxMint - installed easy like Ubuntu, same issue with Firefox menu bar, but the usual fix worked. Hard to see right scroll bar still an issue though.
Durandal :)
How do you mean, you can't see the menu bar? Which version of FF are you using? I don't have a menu bar because I switched it off: right-click next to the tabs and select Menu bar if you want to see it. Personally I don't need to see it, but that is a personal choice. Without the bar, and also the bookmark bar, I have more screen for the webpages I visit.

Right scrollbar is an issue? I use Mint KDE and have no problem in FF with the scrollbar, I do have a problem (maybe the same) in Thunderbird though. See picture. Is this what you mean? As you can see the right side of the part which scrolls up and down is not visible.
snapshot1.png
Durandal

Re: Linux for everyone? ... 10 years on ...

Post by Durandal »

I appreciate all the contributions thus far.

One week on, and I'm actually enjoying my Linux Mint OS. My printer and (smaller) scanner now work - I await confirmation from Mustek whether my A3 scanner is linux compatible. Would be nice to get that working.

My original post was sloppily worded - I was frustrated by the loss of my windows recovery partition and the fact that my printer didn't work immediately. Linux Mint is a friendly user interface, no issues with that at all. And it was a breeze to install.

I know drivers can be an issue in Windows also, so a little tinkering is inevitable - regardless of OS. I have no doubt that simply using any version of Linux is easy - but setting it up requires more work and determination. I'm glad I've been around macs and windows PCs long enough to understand techie glitches and finding solutions - in this respect my LM is a whole new learning curve.

Where do you start? I know my way around Windows command prompts - but linux Terminal commands mean little or nothing to me. If any one can recommend any good books or on line resources that can help Linux newbies understand how it all 'hangs together', and enable me to be more comfortable with the command line - I'd be willing to try to learn. Scary stuff if you screw up of course.

The firefox menu bar is not an issue, and following the recommend, I now have bold visible scroll bars.
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Re: Linux for everyone? ... 10 years on ...

Post by BigEasy »

No books will help to understand "why my scepific device is not working in specific Linux distro". Same things goes on with every other OSs. You can install with your own hands any Windows (did you ever do this?) but never have idea why (for example) scanner Mustek Bear Paw 2400 is not working (and never will) ater that. Right question is not "why" but "what to do" and "is this possible". Ways to solutions (regardless of installed OS):
1. Google
2. Forums
Windows assumes I'm stupid but Linux demands proof of it
Durandal

Re: Linux for everyone? ... 10 years on ...

Post by Durandal »

Hi Big Easy

the idea about books wasn't in relation to specific hardware/driver issues - it was to better understand the OS generally - e.g. why it has the partitions that it does.

Not sure what you mean by this:
'You can install with your own hands any Windows (did you ever do this?)'
I'm not a system administrator, never used DOS batch commands to install Windows - but if you mean have I installed Windows using the MS installer, then yes, including custom installs. From Windows 95 to XP - in the days when buying a new PC came with a Windows installer CD.

I mentioned books because I have found some to be useful learning aids in the past. Eg. I found Adobe's 'Classroom in a Book' series useful.

Not sure I posed the question 'why'?

'What to do?' I do visit the forums.

'Is this possible?' I have contacted Mustek directly, since my model name isn't in their list.

Durandal :mrgreen:

Durandal
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Re: Linux for everyone? ... 10 years on ...

Post by BigEasy »

Durandal wrote:I have contacted Mustek directly, since my model name isn't in their list.
They probably have no idea :)
Long ago I solved same problem starting from here:
http://www.buzzard.me.uk/jonathan/scanners-usb.html
http://www.sane-project.org/sane-mfgs.html#Z-MUSTEK
Windows assumes I'm stupid but Linux demands proof of it
Durandal

Re: Linux for everyone? ... 10 years on ...

Post by Durandal »

Hi BigEasy

thanks for the links.

I found the Sane list earlier and of course, my exact scanner model isn't there - nor the other list you kindly provide.

I download the 'closest' corresponding ScanExpress driver - but the GDebi Package Installer advises a newer version is already present. A VM seems increasingly likely.

On the plus side - I'm really noticing the performance difference between Windows (7) and my new Linux Mint. A year from now, I may never want or have to sit down at another Windows PC again. Will require lots of learning (new software), but I have a sense that it will be worth it.

I agree with the comments about supply diversification and large, homogeneous populations on the Wine site:

http://wiki.winehq.org/ImportanceOfWine

It's really just a confidence issue for me (I don't want to screw my LM up) - but I was a Mac newbie once, then a Windows newbie, so a Linux newbie is a natural progression. Also, some of my most valuable lessons during my Mac/PC days were as a result of bad mistakes! Fear is a poor excuse for not trying!

Durandal 8)
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Re: Linux for everyone? ... 10 years on ...

Post by BigEasy »

Durandal wrote:Hi BigEasyI found the Sane list earlier and of course, my exact scanner model isn't there - nor the other list you kindly provide.
So, answer to question "is it possible" is "no". That is it. Mustek doesn't support Linux by itself (Linux is not guilty). Community can't find another solution yet.
Windows assumes I'm stupid but Linux demands proof of it
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