UK Warranty Denied

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Pierre
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UK Warranty Denied

Post by Pierre »

A customer was denied warranty for a desktop computer, in a major computer store in the UK, because he had deleted the pre-installed Windows OS and had Linux on it.

"There was a time, many years ago, when this kind of practice was customary in many electronics stores. If you were a Linux fan and you wanted a new computer, you had to ask beforehand if installing Linux would break the warranty. Such stores were hard to come by, so this trend dissipated for a while and it basically entered the realm of urban myth."

is this issue going to come back - yet again ??

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Huge-Com ... 3177.shtml
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niowluka

Re: UK Warranty Denied

Post by niowluka »

He deleted a pre-installed Windows, so I guess it's only fair. If you root your android phone, or install Linux on it, you lose warranty as well, so I am not sure why it's so controvertial in case of computers.

When you buy a new PC you get a small booklet with manufacturer's warranty conditions. If the PC came with Windows out of the factory, then most likely it clearly says that you cannot remove it without voiding the warranty. Should have checked beforehand...
JusTertii

Re: UK Warranty Denied

Post by JusTertii »

^^ For the simple reason that it's monopolistic behaviour. In most jurisdictions, that sort of thing is illegal - anti-trust, abuse of market power, all sorts of various names.

Windows, Mac, and most of the Linux OS's are perfectly capable. It's like a car manufacturer denying a warranty claim because you used generic oil instead of the stuff they recommended, when the problem was with (say) the exhaust. Completely unrelated, and simply being relied upon as a technicality to avoid fixing their stuff - as well as to try and cozy up to their other pals in the market place.
catfish12

Re: UK Warranty Denied

Post by catfish12 »

Terrible store pcworld currys i avoid if i can
build my own pc or buy online pc with no Os
new :wink:
var
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Re: UK Warranty Denied

Post by var »

I would not even walk into their stores. I buy my machines from ebay, who actually needs a new computer brand new? Anything from 2009 onwards is pretty good hardware.
scryan

Re: UK Warranty Denied

Post by scryan »

Oddly enough... Im OK with it.

He didn't go buy hardware and build what ever he wanted, claiming warranty on an individual unmodified unit... He bought a pre-configured system then modified it to his likely outside the parameters set by the company that provided it.

You can't really do that. Modifying things will basically always void warranty, from your cell phone to your car.

Some may argue "ohhh well if you can't modify it then are you supposed to always use your hard drive for read only?!", but obviously this is a modification that is know and approved by the seller.

I understand its disappointing that the seller does not approve of switching windows for linux, I would support one that did (no I wouldn't, I just buy parts for cheaper).
It may be hard to understand, because we all know and love linux.

Lets not talk about linux.
My name is Sean.
I'm bad at programming, and have little experience outside of rudimentary python and VB, though I have done A LITTLE c.
I am bold though. And while I have not tested it I WROTE MY OWN KERNEL! I didn't just modify and existing one... I wrote this thing from scratch, ands its good (probably).
Lots of trick stuff with CPU scaling and power management, I probably worked out a decent scheme for overvolting the cpu at the right time, while undervolting it at others.

Now... Wanna run my OS?
Lets say you sell computers. They are good machines, not gonna break.When I load that kernel I designed on one of your machines, and blow up the CPU... OBVIOUSLY, you should pay for this right? Sure, my kernel overclocked your CPU by 20x... Still, you should pay for it.

Obviously not.
OK so forget my kernel, lets load another kernel written by 3 computer science majors. Two are straight A students, one just barely got his 2.0 and got out.
Are you going to pay if their kernel breaks the computer you sold me?

OK, fine then... Lets kick out the bad student and give them an advisor from intel. Also, if their code damages anything you don't have to pay... NOW will you warrenty? You will perfect, because as luck would have it the CPU just exploded.... totally not my kernels fault though. I could see where you think that it would be so if you spend 8x the cost of the computer investigating it and prove me wrong I'll let you off the hook....


Point being, messing around within a known OS is one thing, that OS will protect the computer.
You want to start running your own code at a kernel level or what ever.... Its going to be easier to write code that will kill the computer then not.
Sure linux is good.... According to who?
The seller cannot just let you run whatever and still offer a warranty, as we hopefully learned from my kernel experiment... So they have to explicitly tell you can do, or what is allowed...
That means they pay an employee to choose and be sure of what will not cause issues, and is therefore OK.
Going back to my kernel, say its rainbows awesome. Really, it is. Works perfect, amazingly safe. It should be approved then right? Well, how many hours is the seller/company going to spend paying that expert to dig through my code and perform countless hours of tests? If not even 1 single one of their customers has any interest in running my kernel does it even make sense to test it? If it damaged even 1 machine would it be worth it when none of their customers have even heard of Sean's Kernel? Is it worth the labor?

Now, obviously a few of their customers are going to be interested in linux. But how many? How much money does sales by customers who plan to run linux bring in, and how many hours of testing and check of code are you going to pay for before your confident enough to back it up with your own money?
What we are seeing is companies don't believe there are enough sales to be lost to cover the cost of testing and the possible cost of fulfilling warranty claims potentially due to code they are not familiar with...
Support those who support you, pay attention, read the agreements you sign and show companies like this that there ARE enough sales to be lost to make it worth their while... Its all a money issue and it will change when it makes financial sense.
killer de bug

Re: UK Warranty Denied

Post by killer de bug »

var wrote:I would not even walk into their stores. I buy my machines from ebay, who actually needs a new computer brand new? Anything from 2009 onwards is pretty good hardware.
When you buy a new laptop, at least you know that there is no food under the keyboard :)
killer de bug

Re: UK Warranty Denied

Post by killer de bug »

scryan wrote: He didn't go buy hardware and build what ever he wanted, claiming warranty on an individual unmodified unit... He bought a pre-configured system then modified it to his likely outside the parameters set by the company that provided it.

You can't really do that. Modifying things will basically always void warranty, from your cell phone to your car.
I don't know where you are from, but in the UE you need to consider the OS and the laptop as 2 separate things. Changing the OS doesn't change the warranty of the hardware. If you go to justice you win. And that's normal.


When you buy a car, you don't get a driver always in the seat that you cannot change. It's totally irrelevant as an example.
niowluka

Re: UK Warranty Denied

Post by niowluka »

killer de bug wrote:I don't know where you are from, but in the UE you need to consider the OS and the laptop as 2 separate things.
Please provide supporting evidence for that. So far I could not find any links which would support above except forums, blogs, etc.
killer de bug

Re: UK Warranty Denied

Post by killer de bug »

That's the law. That's like this. That is why in France you have the right to sue a manufacturer who don't want to give you your money back when you ask him to reimburse the cost of Windows or who don't pay enough. That like this...
niowluka

Re: UK Warranty Denied

Post by niowluka »

killer de bug wrote:That's the law. That's like this.
Ah, well that clarifies everything ...
killer de bug

Re: UK Warranty Denied

Post by killer de bug »

niowluka wrote: Ah, well that clarifies everything ...
I'm sorry, but I will not do your homework for you. I know the french law. It clearly says that you have no right to sell linked products and that it is illegal.
This mean that if you buy a car and the guy try to tell you that there is a package with an insurance for one year, you can refuse it and ask him to change the price. That is the same for a computer.

If you want to read some French: http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCod ... 0006069565
Even if you don't read french, I think the picture is clear enough to understand ;) https://aful.org/communiques/asus-amend ... cketiciels
niowluka

Re: UK Warranty Denied

Post by niowluka »

Well, last I remember EU is a couple more countries than just France. And I have no idea how those 2 links have anything to do with the subject: other than being French, first one talks about water and electricity suppliers, and second (from 5 years ago) is a refund for a licence.

I scoured the internet and could not find any remotely relevant law in UK.

PS. I don't speak French so had to rely on Google Translator. Apologies if something got 'lost in translation'.
killer de bug

Re: UK Warranty Denied

Post by killer de bug »

niowluka wrote:Well, last I remember EU is a couple more countries than just France.
Yes, but that's a really good thing since Italia has the same law, Germany and Austria also... After that I know that UK has always been a special part of UE. :roll:
niowluka wrote: And I have no idea how those 2 links have anything to do with the subject: other than being French, first one talks about water and electricity suppliers, [...]
PS. I don't speak French so had to rely on Google Translator. Apologies if something got 'lost in translation'.
Il est interdit d'exiger le paiement immédiat ou différé de biens ou de services fournis par un professionnel ou, s'agissant de biens, d'exiger leur renvoi ou leur conservation, sans que ceux-ci aient fait l'objet d'une commande préalable du consommateur.
This say clearly that linked sale is forbidden. This is THE article which was used in every decision of Justice where computer manufacturers were obliged to reimburse the cost of windows. Because Windows was not the object bought by the consumer (it was the computer) and windows was just linked (which is illegal so the consumer can ask for a refund).
niowluka wrote:and second (from 5 years ago) is a refund for a licence.
It's on of the numerous example provided on this website where this law is applied in order to get windows refunded. This one is famous because it was the one where the guy got a huge amount of money due to the behavior the company. After that getting a refund became easier...

All this clearly states that you buy a computer. If you accept the linked windows license it's up to you. But the justice still consider that you only buy the computer and thus the warranty apply even if you install an other OS.

I know that Samsung is now accepting also that phones with an other OS than Android to be returned in case of problem. No need anymore to put back Android. For the same reason.

After that maybe UK is not applying the UE laws. But as you know, in the UE, the law from the UE is more important than the local laws. So i'm pretty sure the situation is the same in London...
DrHu

Re: UK Warranty Denied

Post by DrHu »

Unlike the auto business or the product business
--the computer business comes with no effective warranty of any kind
  • There is no equivalent of fit for use, as a consumer law
    --so if a car won't steer or brake, that fails the consumer law test
    --if a program (software) fails, that isn't a failure in law, simply a glitch or problem that may or may not be fixed; good luck getting any refund, since the software manufacturer invalidates any consumer protection via the EULAs..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End-user_ ... _liability
  • Product liability[edit]
    Most licenses for software sold at retail disclaim (as far as local laws permit) any warranty on the performance of the software and limit liability for any damages to the purchase price of the software. One well-known case which upheld such a disclaimer is Mortenson v. Timberline
If you make enough noise or become enough of a social network nuisance, you might get a refund or acknowledgment (without prejudice/from the vendor !)
--but that will always be a long shot..
killer de bug

Re: UK Warranty Denied

Post by killer de bug »

We are of course speaking about hardware failures... Like a defective RAM, HD or screen...
scryan

Re: UK Warranty Denied

Post by scryan »

So in France if you buy a computer, and overclock it to the point of hardware damage.... The manufacturer HAS to cover that?

How can they know what your kernel is doing to your hardware?
If their is a hardware failure, how can it be proven that this was/was not because the computer was operated outside of approved safe ranges? Who is responsible for that proof then (financially)?
killer de bug

Re: UK Warranty Denied

Post by killer de bug »

ha ha ha ha. Very funny...

If you damage your processor by overclocking it's your problem. And it's easy to prove as most of the time you will observe traces of burn spots on the silicon. And then the manufacturer owe you nothing.
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Pierre
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Re: UK Warranty Denied

Post by Pierre »

have actually seen some end users with some gadget that they bought.
& damage it somehow & then take it back for an exchange :shock:

- it really does depend on the policy of the shop that they bought that gadget from. ..
:o
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