systemd removal from the system

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asbesto

systemd removal from the system

Post by asbesto »

Hi,

does anyone tried to remove everything systemd-related from linux mint?

Any hint about this?

I'm very interested in this because I don't want systemd on my system and I'm trying to get a solution that avoid changing distribution :/
Last edited by LockBot on Wed Dec 28, 2022 7:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Topic automatically closed 6 months after creation. New replies are no longer allowed.
PatH57

Re: systemd removal from the system

Post by PatH57 »

not sure what you mean?
Ubuntu and Mint use Upstart and Systemd will only be implemented as a test (you have to enable it)
Plans are it will be used on Ubuntu later this year.
The parts using systemd are only because upstart is considered dead and too many bugs affect it.https://lwn.net/Articles/582585/
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xenopeek
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Re: systemd removal from the system

Post by xenopeek »

Looking ahead, later this year LMDE 2 will be released with systemd as default init system. That's following upstream Debian. Linux Mint 18, due mid 2016, will likely also do that migration from following upstream Ubuntu. Currently LMDE uses SysV init and Linux Mint 17 uses Upstart init. So while right now systemd init isn't used, Linux Mint is moving in that direction. If for whatever reason you can't get stuff done with systemd init, perhaps it is time to look at other distros. Though you could just switch to another init system, just as you can already do right now (whether on SysV init or Upstart init, you can already switch to systemd init or any of the other Debian or Ubuntu supported init systems).

Let's be clear that systemd is a project that consists of more software components that aren't part of the systemd init daemon; read the overview on Wikipedia if you're not clear on that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd. If the reason for your question is that you can't get stuff done with systemd init, you could take the above and just switch to another init system after systemd init becomes the default for you on Linux Mint.

Else, let's consider a few more points:
  • While it's not used currently on Linux Mint, I think with above migration also the systemd journal (journald) will be adopted for handling system logging. If you don't see yourself getting stuff done with the systemd journal, it's trivial to enable to use syslog instead (install a syslog daemon and set ForwardToSyslog=yes in /etc/systemd/journald.conf).
  • Many of the software components from the systemd project are system libraries used by developers of applications because it makes it easier for them to develop and maintain their applications, especially considering targeting multiple Linux distros (avoids a lot of "if-this-then-that" kind of code, as they can depend on things working in a defined manner regardless of the distro they are on). Things like:
    • hostnamed - a tiny daemon that can be used to control the host name and related machine meta data from user programs
    • localed - a tiny daemon that can be used to control the system locale and keyboard mapping from user programs
    • timedated - a tiny daemon that can be used to control the system time and related settings
    • logind - a tiny daemon that manages user logins and seats in various ways
    None of those are part of the systemd init daemon. While I don't see why a user should care what system libraries your applications use, if you are opposed to applications whose developers are using system libraries from the systemd project mind that these libraries are one implementation of the published APIs. Other implementations of those APIs can be developed, like for OpenBSD is being done with systembsd (most details in their manpage; not on the web yet so take a screenshot instead: http://i.imgur.com/2nJ1BV1.png).
If you can't get stuff done with any of the software components from the systemd project, while I don't see how you should care that much what system libraries your applications use, you could possibly remove all the software components from the systemd project along with all the applications you have installed that depend on those. If you are on Linux Mint 17 you will currently find these systemd related packages installed:

Code: Select all

libpam-systemd        system and service manager - PAM module
libsystemd-daemon0    systemd utility library
libsystemd-login0     systemd login utility library
systemd-services      systemd runtime services
systemd-shim          shim for systemd
So if you are opposed to any developer that is making their application easier to develop and maintain by them depending on components from the systemd project, yes you can remove all these from Linux Mint. You can do so with the command:

Code: Select all

apt remove libpam-systemd libsystemd-daemon0 libsystemd-login0 systemd-services systemd-shim
I tried this on Linux Mint 17 Xfce, and it basically would remove Xfce completely along with many desktop components (network manager and so on). So it would be quite some work to do this and certainly won't be an "out of the box" experience—other distros will be easier in regards of you not having to replace applications that depend on components from the systemd project. DistroWatch weekly had a list of suggestions for that: http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20140908#qa

In closing:
  • If your problem is with systemd init—you can replace it (on future Linux Mint version; it's not used right now);
  • If your problem is with journald—you can easily enable syslog (on future Linux Mint version; it's not used right now);
  • If your problem is with anything that has the name "systemd" on it—it's probably easier in time to find another distro.
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asbesto

Re: systemd removal from the system

Post by asbesto »

I'm not opposed to any developer trying to make thing easier; I'm instead opposed to anyone that want to change GNU/LINUX, creating huge and unuseful big chunks of software willing to do everything instead of having little versatile pieces of software that do WELL just a single thing; that's totally against UNIX and K.I.S.S. philosophy; that's the reason why I really think systemd is a cancer, that's going to destroy GNU/Linux.

About systemd in mint 17, I have some systemd-daemons running on my system, one for login (logind?), another for something related to the very useful task of changing the hostname :evil: (systemd-hostnamed) and some other stuff like that. So I just want to try removing them, to have back a real UNIX like, GNU/Linux system...
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Re: systemd removal from the system

Post by xenopeek »

As I wrote, but perhaps not tersely enough, systemd is a project developing multiple software components. One of those is the systemd init (pid 1), but all these examples you are giving aren't part of the systemd init. These are tiny daemons, separate binaries, and not running as part of pid 1.

It's easy to get carried away by articles that have appeared on various tech news websites, speaking doom for Linux because of systemd. Don't get carried away. The folks from Linux Action Show in their Linux Unplugged #57 show have busted the tech writers behind those articles and debunked the common anti systemd arguments. Listen for 15 minutes, it should give you food for thought.
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js3915

Re: systemd removal from the system

Post by js3915 »

asbesto wrote:I'm not opposed to any developer trying to make thing easier; I'm instead opposed to anyone that want to change GNU/LINUX, creating huge and unuseful big chunks of software willing to do everything instead of having little versatile pieces of software that do WELL just a single thing; that's totally against UNIX and K.I.S.S. philosophy; that's the reason why I really think systemd is a cancer, that's going to destroy GNU/Linux.

About systemd in mint 17, I have some systemd-daemons running on my system, one for login (logind?), another for something related to the very useful task of changing the hostname :evil: (systemd-hostnamed) and some other stuff like that. So I just want to try removing them, to have back a real UNIX like, GNU/Linux system...
Think there is a lot of bad press about systemd out there, nor do I believe it takes away from philosophies from Linux as a whole. I think it actually improves the experience as awhole. After being on a distro that is more K.I.S.S than Mint is for over a year and playing with systemd in general i find it more intuitive than previous methods, makes controlling a system for me a ton easier

Also as xenopeek pointed out, Mint 17 is based still on upstart now I havent used mint much lately so im not sure where systemd is coming in currently on your current system as to why your trying to remove it, and also ubuntu is moving to systemd as is debian. If you really want something that is of old init best bet is slackware.
scryan

Re: systemd removal from the system

Post by scryan »

I come from Arch Linux, and have enjoyed systemd way more.
Now, I am not smart... So maybe I am not smart enough to recognize all the horribleness... But it sure makes my system run better and faster, and makes start, stopping and enabling daemons super easy.

I guess it will be hard to not sound offensive with this next part... I don't mean it to be... But 90% of the anti systemd stuff I have seen has been similar to this post.
The OP HATES systemd, its ruining his experience with mint to the point where he is considering switching distributions. He wants instructions to get it off his system... However... His system doesn't use it and it will be years before its implemented in mint.
It seems to always be complaints from people who oppose it on a theoretical standpoint, while not fully understanding it.
I can't help but think if you don't understand it/your system well enough to know if its running on your system... Your criticisms may not be completely rational or based on your own experience/opinion.
Sorry to be overly honest :oops:

While I am not going to extol all its virtues, as I only understand enough to start/stop enable/disable services... It has been rainbows fantastic at doing so.
(edit: OK, so sometimes I cuss and let the autofilter pick it up. I know I know, but that is why its there... I never try and get around it. Thats a funny one ^ right there)
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Flemur
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Re: systemd removal from the system

Post by Flemur »

Sorry to be overly honest

"I was so mad I accidentally told the truth!"
Please edit your original post title to include [SOLVED] if/when it is solved!
Your data and OS are backed up....right?
altair4
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Re: systemd removal from the system

Post by altair4 »

Just thought I'd share something that just popped up while searching for something else.

systemd has been forked and the fork is called ..... uselessd:
uselessd (the useless daemon, or the daemon that uses less... depending on your viewpoint) is a project which aims to reduce systemd to a base initd, process supervisor and transactional dependency system, while minimizing intrusiveness and isolationism. Basically, it’s systemd with the superfluous stuff cut out, a (relatively) coherent idea of what it wants to be, support for non-glibc platforms and an approach that aims to minimize complicated design.
Please add a [SOLVED] at the end of your original subject header if your question has been answered and solved.
asbesto

Re: systemd removal from the system

Post by asbesto »

Just as an example, I have a chrooted sshd:

Code: Select all

systemctl status sshd.service
Running in chroot, ignoring request
So poettering decided that I can't test a jailed sshd through init.

systemd is a cancer.
js3915

Re: systemd removal from the system

Post by js3915 »

Borrowed from another page but this pretty much sums it up.. I can see where some dont like systemd if your on older systems or only one server but in retrospect if were wanting to delopy hundreds if not 1000's of servers really until someone comes up with something better its pretty pointless to gripe just cause it not what your used to.
I just wanted to comment a bit on the whole systemd thing from a perspective of a low-level programmer.
If no-one takes anything else from this email, please at least understand that**Modern software does not work "the UNIX way" for TECHNICAL reasons.**
Let's be realistic, System V init was a bunch of shell scripts that had very little in them to accommodate in terms of security, maintainability on a large scale, test ability and integration. The reason systemd stores log files in a binary format for example is for efficiency reasons when communicating between its different components, not to make it impossible for you, as the user, to read them - in fact it is very easy to get your logs in textual form.
Another thing is, the reason systemd integrates some of the stuff that were previously separate programs is that it can integrate better with them ie communicating between shell scripts is way more expensive than having a single body of C code handle it - and let me tell you, that C code is pretty well written. When was the last time you saw a really good shell script of any complexity whatsoever? I can't remember either.
Another thing is that exploiting concurrency and parallelism using shell scripts is practically impossible.
I am not even talking about having a nice API etc., etc.

Lets not forget, UNIX was built in an age, where the Internet was simply not a thing and so security concerns were often tossed aside, it was built in an age of archaic HW that certainly wasn't a quad/six/eight-core beast and it wasn't built in an age where deploying your own personal VPS in 55 seconds was possible.

It certainly is disgusting to hear all the trash talk from the BSD guys, who until recently used an archaic compiler, still use code from 1992 and still use an init system that is a bunch of shell scripts...
Go on, develop something systemd-competitive and then talk...
asbesto

Re: systemd removal from the system

Post by asbesto »

I dont' want and I dont' feel any need for a systemd fork or substitution, simply because I never needed anything like that. And like me, a lot of other users. So now I have to fork and write my own systemd-like or something competitive? No thanks. Internet worked well as today WITHOUT it :)

http://judecnelson.blogspot.it/2014/09/ ... acies.html
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xenopeek
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Re: systemd removal from the system

Post by xenopeek »

This topic has drifted from support into discussion. Moved it to chat.

@asbestos: I think you have your answer. LMDE migrates to systemd init in November and Linux Mint 18 will follow suit mid 2016 (LMDE currently uses SysV init and Linux Mint 17 uses Upstart init). You don't want systemd, but that is what Linux Mint is going to be shipped with. Looking at others' comments continuing this discussion seems pointless—you will agree that you're not going to change your opinion about systemd, right? :wink: Just the same you must know that you're not changing anybody else's opinion here.

Your link to "systemd: the biggest fallacies" is a good example of that. As eloquently put by JustMakeShitUp (on the reddit thread) that article suffers from the fallacy fallacy.

Let's agree systemd is a divisive topic.
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Re: systemd removal from the system

Post by InkKnife »

Looks like it will be a hard future if you are just dead set against systemd because practically every distro is going to be running it soon. Just like the future is dark if you are attached to Xwindows.
Perhaps, if systemd offends so badly a look at BSD is in order.
I have read both sides and am confident systemd is going to be a very good thing for many reasons.
i7 3770, 12GB of ram, 256GB SSD, 64GB SSD, 750GB HDD, 1TB HDD, Cinnamon.
asbesto

/bin/login instead of systemd-logind ?

Post by asbesto »

Hi there,

it is possible to install an old but gold /bin/login instead of systemd-logind?

I don't want any systemd-related thing in my system


Thank you everybody :)
mike acker
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Re: systemd removal from the system

Post by mike acker »

xenopeek wrote: {snip}
LMDE migrates to systemd init in November and {SNIP}

Let's agree systemd is a divisive topic.
will this "roll out" via the update channel ?
I'm *very* happy with my LMDE/Mint
¡Viva la Resistencia!
js3915

Re: systemd removal from the system

Post by js3915 »

asbesto wrote: I don't want any systemd-related thing in my system
still think most people that are against systemd have never actually touched a system with systemd. or they dont do any type of system administration.

systemd might not be the best thing, but right now its the only thing and until someone actually writes something better this is the best linux has to stay competitive in todays world computer market.. Which includes phones and tablets containers 100's of cloud instances mobile network all of which older init systems dont do at all.
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Re: systemd removal from the system

Post by var »

So just use another distro that will still use SysV init?
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xenopeek
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Re: systemd removal from the system

Post by xenopeek »

var wrote:So just use another distro that will still use SysV init?
That's not even the topic :) Linux Mint 17 uses Upstart init. LMDE 1 uses SysV init. systemd init is but one of the programs developed by the systemd project; this isn't about systemd init.
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rhY

Re: systemd removal from the system

Post by rhY »

Ugh, I just got a systemd update in Update Manager.

It's official: I'm moving on from Linux Mint.

It's been a nice ride.

I like log files I can actually READ though.
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