Want old menu back. From 13 LTS XCFE to 17 LTS XCFE

[Håkis]

Hey! This is my first post in the Linux MInt forum. I hope i did everything right.
Yesterday i formated my computer with a Linux Mint XCFE 13 installation and installed the latest LTS-release.
I find the new menu just absurdly ugly. I miss the simple and in my meaning - more structural menu from the 13 LTS release.
I could extract the menu button from 13 and use in 17. That's possible. But then i wont get the whole structure.
This is pictures of what i want.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-WshIIRvqVp4/U ... :54+PM.png

Is it possible to do this? Thank you very much for your reply.

[xenopeek]

Fixed the dead link in your post.

Explore more would be my advice. Right-click on the panel, select Panel > Add New Items and add the Applications Menu. Remove the Whisker Menu.

[altair4]

... Right-click on the panel, select Panel > Add New Items and add the Applications Menu. Remove the Whisker Menu.

And as further proof of my ongoing insanity I actually do what xenopeek suggested except for the last part. I have two menus. The old one when I want to launch something quickly and the new one ( Whisker ) which has enough new features like sending an app launcher to the panel for example that both have their place.

[MtnDewManiac]

( Whisker ) which has enough new features like sending an app launcher to the panel for example that both have their place.

You can do that with the older Applications Menu. Drag and drop, done.

Regards,
MDM

[markfilipak]

This is pictures of what i want.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-WshIIRvqVp4/U ... :54+PM.png

As a new kid on the block, I hesitate to sound critical, but on the other hand, I have computer experience going back to the early 1970s.

Håkis, I looked at your screenshot.
zenopeek, I installed 'Applications Menu' (but did not remove 'Whisker Menu').

I don't see any substantial difference between any of them.
- The top level is a (mostly) uneditable list of header-links.
- Clicking a header-link exposes a single-level of app launchers associated with it.
- In Whisker there are top-level app launchers called 'Favorites'.
- In AddMenu there are top-level app launchers that, other than not having links, are otherwise undistinguished from header-links.

If a user uses MenuLibre to move an app launcher to the top level, the app launcher appears in AppMenu, but not in Whisker.

Neither AppMenu nor Whisker can manage its own items, but require an external app (such as MenuLibre).

None of the "menus" will accommodate real menu items like data files, documents, and web links. They accommodate only app launchers.

None of them are true menu systems.

Do I have this right? I apologize for any errors -- I'm a newbie -- and welcome corrections.

[MtnDewManiac]

I don't see any substantial difference between any of them.

I think it's just a matter of user taste/choice. Someone probably requested a menu that looked more like something that... IDK, really. Everything that comes to mind as far as finishing that sentence seems like it would be taken as a derogatory statement, lol, which is not my intention, so I'll just use "different." I don't really care for it, but again, it's another choice for people.

I do know that people have been asking for a menu that was much easier to edit for some time now. I figured that they meant something along the lines of the GNOME 2.x menu, where a user could simply right-click it, choose to edit it, and then easily move apps back and forth amongst the categories, select which things were visible in it, et cetera. But, apparently, the Xfce developer(s) who have charge of their menu(s, I guess now) did not . Oh well.

None of them are true menu systems.

Well... They may not qualify as "menus" under the specific ways that you define the term, but a menu is simply a list of choices that a person is allowed to choose from. Therefore...

Do I have this right?

No, lol.

OtOH, if they DID happen to release a menu that fitted your definition... A lot of people would probably be really happy .

Regards,
MDM

[markfilipak]

...OtOH, if they DID happen to release a menu that fitted your definition... A lot of people would probably be really happy .

Hey MDM. Nice to 'see' you again. You won't remember me, but that's okay.

If I wrote a menu system, would I need anything more than Python? Do you know of anyone who I could ask for advice and criticism?

[MtnDewManiac]

You won't remember me, but that's okay.

Well, I do, but only vaguely. Please don't be offended, lol, I often have trouble remembering what I ate - or IF I did - yesterday; speaking of which, it's after 10:00pm and I don't seem to have eaten breakfast yet, so I'd better finish this post and Step Away from the Computer(!) for a bit. You probably helped me with a computer issue at one point? Or maybe I annoyed you some time (if so, apologies for that - I have... issues that have nothing to do with computers ).

If I wrote a menu system, would I need anything more than Python? Do you know of anyone who I could ask for advice and criticism?

Brother, you're asking a guy that can just about manage to correctly apply a band-aid the best way to perform robot-aided neurosurgery . Go here:

Code: Select all

https://forum.xfce.org/

Ask some of the Xfce gurus (he's not a developer, but member ToZ goes to great lengths to provide intelligent help to anyone that needs it and has been known to delve into source code, and there are other smart people who know Xfce, too).

Or try one of the Xfce email lists. You could probably have conversations with the various Xfce developers on some of them:

Code: Select all

https://mail.xfce.org/mailman/listinfo/

Maybe you'd be interested in forking (or taking over, if it is no longer being actively developed) the "classic" Xfce menu application? I'd like to see it with the simple editing method I mentioned in my previous post. Being able to move (or create a duplicate entry) an app from - for example - Accessories to Office - would be great! So would the ability to select "Add New Category." But I suppose what looks simple to the end-user often is anything but simple to the developer. If you decide to try your hand at creating or modifying a menu app, good luck.

Regards,
MDM

[markfilipak]

You won't remember me, but that's okay.

...You probably helped me with a computer issue at one point? Or maybe I annoyed you some time...

You helped me. I'm a newbie at Linux. I remember you because of "MtnDew". I have a funny/poignant story about Mountain Dew from 1967, but it's a bit long.

If I wrote a menu system, would I need anything more than Python? Do you know of anyone who I could ask for advice and criticism?

...Go here:

Code: Select all

https://forum.xfce.org/

Good idea. I'm a member. I don't know where Mint ends and Xfce begins. And, yes, I've had dealings with ToZ. He's a very helpful fellow.

Or try one of the Xfce email lists...

Code: Select all

https://mail.xfce.org/mailman/listinfo/

OH! Now I do appreciate that. I prefer email lists to web forums. (Funny I never could warm to Internet chat, though.)

Maybe you'd be interested in forking (or taking over, if it is no longer being actively developed) the "classic" Xfce menu application?

Nope. I took a look at some of the code. No, I'd do it starting with a really good architecture. A menu system is not tough, but it needs to be done right from the git-go. Evolutionarily growing a UI is not my style.

I'd like to see it with the simple editing method I mentioned in my previous post.

That's edit mode. It can be stateful (enter edit mode/exit edit mode), or it can be based on "hold edit key" + drag-n-drop. One thing I would definitely want is the ability to drag a file and drop it on the menu to make a link to that file, then choose 'run' v. 'edit' v. 'show' v. etc.

Being able to move (or create a duplicate entry) an app from - for example - Accessories to Office - would be great!

I'm unsure what you mean.

So would the ability to select "Add New Category."

That's architecture. That's exactly where I would begin.

But I suppose what looks simple to the end-user often is anything but simple to the developer.

It's just a menu system, not brain surgery.

If you decide to try your hand at creating or modifying a menu app, good luck.

Thank you.

Are you familiar with Windows XP? If so, what would you think of doing the same thing in Linux? If not, reply and I'll describe it. I remember when XP came out. The menu system really threw me because I was used to structure-driven menus like the current Linux XML menu "system". But XP's file-based system was simple yet extremely powerful and I rapidly fell head-over-heals in love with it. Of course, Microsoft abandoned it in the next version of Windows (Vista). ...Microsoft couldn't allow a simple and powerful menu system to fall into the hands of end users, could it?

[MtnDewManiac]

but it's a bit long.

For me, a post is "a bit long" when I try to submit it and the software tells me that I've exceeded the 30k (or whatever) size limit . But I do worry that I might occasionally annoy those who think SMS or Twitter(?) posts are just the right length to not be longer than their attention span. (Okay, I don't worry about it all that often.)

Being able to move (or create a duplicate entry) an app from - for example - Accessories to Office - would be great!

I'm unsure what you mean.

I'm going from memory here <DANGER, WILL ROBINSON, DANGER!>, so I might not have it right. But, IIRC, in GNOME 2.x, I could right-click on the menu button and select Edit. Hmm... There were checkboxes beside the category titles and application names - check to make visible, blank for invisible. I could also drag an entry from one category to another. I cannot remember whether I could easily copy an entry from one category and paste it into another one or not, but that might also be appreciated by folks (IDK). So would the ability to add another category. There is "Games" in mine - but what if someone has many games and wishes to create a sub-category for card games? Things like that. Or if someone uses applications from Graphics, Multimedia, and Office for work and wishes to place them together - but not in their Favorites category, because that might be for personal time applications - and still leave the existing entries in their respective categories? That all seems like basic menu, err, moving and shuffling for the most part to me. Maybe a simple option to add a new application to the menu for those occasional apps that do not show up in the menu when they are installed via Synaptic Package Manager? Let me think... Okay, these might or might not appeal to the majority, but I'm sure that someone would use them: I have seen applications that I needed to open a terminal to run successfully (if I tried to run them outside of a terminal, I either wouldn't see them or I'd see a terminal window "blink" onto and off the screen in a fraction of a second). Maybe an option called "Run this entry in (the default) terminal" that would - if this can even be done - expressly open a terminal window and then execute the command that runs the app within said terminal, and then leaves the terminal window open afterwards (IOW, the menu does not close the terminal afterward; I'm assuming that if it is opened before the app command is run, it'll stay open on its own, but IDK). And, perhaps, the ability to add a "modifier" to certain (all?) entries - such as, in the case of a text editor, a user wishes to have a specific file open inside it (IDK, maybe a man page or other instructional document?).

I believe that I read once that if something like a menu application conformed to the "freedesktop.org"(?) standards, that it could - in theory - be used in any desktop environment that uses those standards. I'm not really sure about that. I started using Mint just after Mint 14 came out. There was no Whisper Menu in it. I installed Mint 14 Xfce on someone's computer and they remarked that they wished there was a(n easy) way to add a "Favorites" section. So... I added the MATE menu beside their Xfce one on the panel . I think it crashed on them if they did certain things (IIRC, there were other options besides the usual menu things, maybe a settings option - which would have probably attempted to run MATE's settings program, lol?) but the way it was set up, I could configure it to display twelve "favorite" applications in a 3*4 grid, with separator lines between the sets; I placed three "Internet" apps, then three "Multimedia" apps, then Hulu Desktop, Compholio's Netflix (Microsoft Windows version of Firefox via custom patched Wine which was modified to show Netflix like a fullscreen application) and... something else (maybe Minitube or Miro). The person was happy, because he had his "favorites" in a roundabout way - but I remember that I had to install some sort of app(let) first which allowed me to run the MATE menu (within it, I guess, IDK)... So maybe that Freedesktop thing isn't all that must be considered for "cross-DE menu apps." Who knows?

Are you familiar with Windows XP?

Well, I was. It has been a couple years or so since I booted into it, though. IIRC... There was a "Start" button on the panel, because... People seeing "Menu" might not click on it if they weren't hungry, maybe? When the menu was opened, it had the user's icon representation and user name at the top - because mad, bad, Billy Gates might have figured that the typical user of his OS constantly forgot who he/she was? It was a double-column setup, with the left side being mostly Microsoft apps - because Microsoft wanted their users to think (for example) that Internet Explorer was the same as "Internet," lol, and not to have to open an actual application list (which might have <GASP!> contained Firefox web browser, MediaMonkey music (etc.) player, and the like) . The right side had... Some generic folder links, "My Documents" which was probably closer to our /home folder than a straight Documents one, I suppose, a "My Computer" which the user could double-click to get something that always put me in mind of Windows 3.x's Program Manager (icons representing folders/directories and icons representing applications, rather than an actual file manager that would show detailed information in a list) or right-click and select Explore to get an actual useful file manager. My Pictures and My Music which were subdirectories within My Documents. My Network Places which probably confused a lot of people looking for their Internet I mean Internet Explorer. A link to the Control Panel settings application. A "Help" one. Oh, and the Run entry, which was useful because the user could then type in cmd to run the NT command line shell terminal (or command, if es was attempting to run an old DOS application which had compatibility issues with cmd). And... Yeah, the bottom of the left column had "All Programs," which would open up the actual application menu. No, wait... Okay, the more-or-less middle of that left-hand column was sort of dynamic; it either had recently used applications or most-used ones, I don't remember for sure if there was a weighting system so that if you ran application #1 twenty times each day, it would show up on top of application #2 even though you had just run #2... or not. But it changed according to what apps the user used. And the applications menu bit was on the bottom of the left column, and it opened sort of like Firefox bookmark folders do when one presses Ctrl-B and works with them in the list, I guess? Recently installed applications/etc. were highlighted, folders could be nested inside other folders, folders could contain both application launchers and document links, and - looking back - I guess the whole thing was sort of as unwieldy as a boat anchor, lol, but back when Microsoft Windows XP was THE computer's OS, it was just "da menu" . I probably missed half of it and got the other half wrong; I had to close my eyes and "pretend to use" the thing, lol.

If so, what would you think of doing the same thing in Linux?

IDK, like most other things where linux is concerned, some people would love it, some would hate it, a lot would be sort of ambivalent about it and maybe - or maybe not - use it... But it's one more choice to give people.

It has been quite a while since I looked at KDE and thought, "That's okay." (It went flashy and I went down the road .) I had just gotten Mandrake linux 8.1 for my (quickly aborted due to issues, lack of support after paying ~$70 for their PowerPack edition, and complete disgruntlement with the company, but that's another [RANT]) switch from Microsoft to linux, so it'd have been - IIRC - late in 2001. But I'm thinking that, at that time, when I saw KDE's menu, I thought that it reminded me of Microsoft's. Whether that would have been XP or 98SE, I cannot remember. That particular linux experience was not a long one and it was a few years before I tried again, at which point I discovered GNOME 2.x (liked it) and, later, Xfce 4.x (really liked it - still do).

The menu system really threw me because I was used to structure-driven menus like the current Linux XML menu "system".

Lol, what?

But XP's file-based system was simple yet extremely powerful and I rapidly fell head-over-heals in love with it.

I fell head-over-heels once, but it was with a woman. Since hers was a case of questionable virtue (actually... No. No question at all. Some would have even used the term "negotiable."), I'd have been better off falling for a computer. Well... My bank balance would have been better off. Would have still existed, probably.

Of course, Microsoft abandoned it in the next version of Windows (Vista).

Apparently, I'm one of the few people that thought Vista was okay. I thought XP was okay. <SHRUGS> I thought both menus were okay, too. They were each "what there was" at the time. It wasn't until I really started using linux that I got, IDK, spoiled for choice? Why, just today I found myself thinking, "Now that I know how to download an .ISO to my hard drive, stick its entry into my Grub menu, restart the computer, boot to it, and thus run/install another distro without ever having to burn a disc or "burn" a flash drive, I might just pick a distro and do exactly that - just because I can." And then I realized that I'm happy enough with Mint that I have no need, and probably won't (especially since I've only recently installed Mint 17.1 and have only booted into IT two or three times so far, lol) - but there's that linux "choice" thing again .

Regards,
MDM

[markfilipak]

Reply to MDM,

I guess you don't remember Windows XP. The menu was file-based. There was a magic folder:
'C:\Documents and Settings\'<-username->'Start Menu\'.
Whatever you put in that folder would appear in the menu. Generally, you'd just put symlinks in the menu, but if you wanted a hierarchy, all you had to do was create a folder within 'Start Menu' and it would appear in the menu. Then put symlinks in that folder to create a 2nd level of menu. Create folders in the 2nd level to make a 3rd level, etc., without limit. It was dead easy.

The menu entries didn't have to be programs (or folders to the next level down). They could be symlinks to pictures, videos, web-links, anything. Also, they didn't have to be symlinks. They could be actual pictures or documents or videos, etc., though that was a little dangerous as it was easy to forget which were symlinks and which were actual data files. The symlinks had little arrows at 7-o'clock to let you know they were links and not real files, but it was easy to overlook a missing arrow and delete a real file.

Most of my menu sections had only 2 or 3 levels, but some had many, many levels. IIRC, my HTML/Javascript/CSS/DOM section had about 8 or 9 levels. My historical maps reference section had about 5 levels. For example, I had a branch of the menu dedicated to Cinema. It had my reference material, DVD players, documents I was working on, DVD-info test program, a program for creating and editing DVD & Blu-ray covers, DVD & BD cover templates for Corel Draw. ...It was as though my computer had a 'Cinema Workroom' to hold all my cinema stuff. It made the Linux launch menus look childish in comparison.

[MtnDewManiac]

Yeah, that's the mess that I remember, lol. Take an applications menu and run it through the Microsoft Bloat-a-Matic until it has more junk in it than my ex-wife's 25-pound purse.

Kind of makes even Xfce's Whisper menu sound like a gem .

Regards,
MDM

[markfilipak]

Yeah, that's the mess that I remember, lol. Take an applications menu and run it through the Microsoft Bloat-a-Matic until it has more junk in it than my ex-wife's 25-pound purse.

Kind of makes even Xfce's Whisper menu sound like a gem .

What are you 'talking' about? You had total control over the XP menu. You could have as much or as little as you wanted. There were no mandatory menu items at all. You could eliminate everything if you wanted. It wasn't bloated at all. It was about as lean as possible. You're either thinking of something else or you're pulling my leg.