My thinking about CINNAMON

Please post suggestions for improvement of Cinnamon here
https://github.com/linuxmint/Cinnamon

My thinking about CINNAMON

Postby otitkothabole on Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:16 am

Linux Mint took a huge step forward when they launch MATE & GNOME 3 with MGSE in LISA.

MATE

MATE is actually the old GNOME 2 which is abondend by GNOME org. MINT team determined to keep it & change its every details from GNOME to MATE so that it doesn't conflict withthe existing gnome DE the GNOME SHELL or GNOME 3. When almost the whole LINUX world was divided about using GNOME 3 or not MINT was brave enough to use the older one. For those people, who dont want to change the way they use their computer.

GNOME 3 with MGSE

GNOME 3 is a complete different approach. User suddenly face difficulty when they found no previous approach is available. So mint launch it in LISA with MGSE, which gives some of the most popular features of GNOME 2. After few days GNOME org launch their official website for extensions to add extra features in GNOME 3.So user can now modify the view & usability of the DE according to their choice.

SLOWNESS

Its great. But all the extensions (MGSE & others) load on top of GNOME SHELL. The whole shell loads first. Then the extensions loads one by one & modify the shell. So boot becomes very slow. I am also facing it. The lesser extensions I am using, the faster will be my computer's boot. But I am not comfortable without the features. Thats why I added them. Thats why I use LINUX in the second place. Customizing it anyways. The cause is obviously NO VIRUS.

STABILITY ISSUE

It also lacks in stability as the extensions sometimes conflict with each other. So the shell suddenly frezzes or disappers. Sometimes it logs out automaticly. bla..bla..bla. And theres no way solving the conflicting issue, because all the extensions load idipendently, one by one.

HERE COMES THE CINNAMON


So the MINT people realized, using EXTENSIONs is not a good solution. They started forking GNOME 3 to add the fetures in code level. it will make the shell faster & stable with the additional fetures. Amazing, isn't it?
They Named it CINNAMON. They are working on it. They have released the alpha version in the repo. For more info visit http://cinnamon.linuxmint.com/

FIRST VIEW OF CINNAMON

I downloaded CINNAMON & log in to it. I saw there is no top panel, no add to desktop yet, a bottom panel with panel icons & menu(exactly like GNOME 2), an INFINITY sign for over view mode, no favorites & menu in overview
mode. I was totally surprised & disappointed. I wonder, why they are trying to make it almost like GNOME 2? I know there are lots people who still preffer GNOME 2 & for them there is still MATE.

CLEM said that, they are gonna continue both CINNAMON & MATE. Then why both of them having exactly same look? And what about people like me , who loved the view of GNOME SHELL with additional fetures of extensions. I request the the DEVS to cnsider the fllowing option in CINNAMON

01. Bottom Panel only/Top panel only/Both (with auto-hide options.
02, Bottom menu only/Overview menu only/both.
03. Clock on bottom right/top middle/top right.
04. Status icon/name on bottom right/top right.
05. Notification in bottom/top.
06. Hotspot on/off (Solved)
07. Activity text/Infinty sign
08. Favourite in Overview dock
09. Add to dektop & add to panel(Solved)
10. (Irrelevant)
11. Make the DE indipendent of WM or make it COMPIZ based (CLEM said he will try http://cinnamon.linuxmint.com/?page_id=61#comment-107)

Some others added on January 5..........
12. Brightness tcon on/off or add brightness in battery indicator(I really need this. I have visual issues)
13. Network icon shows speed when conected. Which NETSPEED extension does in individual icon.
14, Baterry indicator always show current battery level in percentage.
Last edited by otitkothabole on Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
otitkothabole
Level 1
Level 1
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 4:31 am
Location: Sylhet, Bangladesh

Linux Mint is funded by ads and donations.
 

Re: My thinkig about CINNAMON

Postby bimsebasse on Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:35 am

CLEM said that, they are gonna continue both CINNAMON & MATE. Then why both of them having exactly same look?

Mint has a trademark standard setup - bottom panel with mint menu on the left, this is what the devs strive for in each DE. The only reason MGSE looked different is probably because a single bottom panel was difficult to achieve at the time of release, and it's still not a stroll in the park. If Mint for some reason should adopt Unity it would be with a bottom launcher and mint menu on the left.

06. Hotspot on/off

Introduced in the new version.

10 Previous & next button in Nautilus.

This is not part of Cinnamon, or Unity, or Gnome shell, or any shell, it's Gnome 3.

11. Make the DE indipendent of WM or make it COMPIZ based (CLEM said he will try http://cinnamon.linuxmint.com/?page_id=61#comment-107)

Sounds interesting, I know a lot of Gnome Shell users are missing Compiz eye candy.
Thank you for this thread. That’s all I can say. You most definitely have made this forum into something special. You clearly know what you are doing, you’ve covered so many bases. Thanks!
User avatar
bimsebasse
Level 7
Level 7
 
Posts: 1709
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:21 am
Location: Scandinavia

Re: My thinkig about CINNAMON

Postby otitkothabole on Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:18 am

Mint has a trademark standard setup - bottom panel with mint menu on the left, this is what the devs strive for in each DE. The only reason MGSE looked different is probably because a single bottom panel was difficult to achieve at the time of release, and it's still not a stroll in the park. If Mint for some reason should adopt Unity it would be with a bottom launcher and mint menu on the left.


I like the bottom panel with Mintmenu in left, show desktop & window list. Also like the top panel with status,network,netspeed,sound icons on right & clock in the middle. In Cinnamon there is no top panel,

If MINT cant have top panel as its standard as you said (just bottom panel), why dont they stick with MATE only. Why developing Cinnamon??
otitkothabole
Level 1
Level 1
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 4:31 am
Location: Sylhet, Bangladesh

Re: My thinking about CINNAMON

Postby viking777 on Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:23 pm

CLEM said that, they are gonna continue both CINNAMON & MATE. Then why both of them having exactly same look? And what about people like me , who loved the view of GNOME SHELL with additional fetures of extensions. I request the the DEVS to cnsider the fllowing option in CINNAMON

01. Bottom Panel only/Top panel only/Both.
02, Bottom menu only/Overview menu only/both.
03. Clock on bottom right/top middle/top right.
04. Status icon/name on bottom right/top right.
05. Notification in bottom/top.
06. Hotspot on/off
07. Activity text/Infinty sign
08. Favourite in Overview right dock/in desktop
09. Add to dektop & add to panel(Clem said they are added,available in GIT & will be available in repo soon http://cinnamon.linuxmint.com/?page_id=61#comment-107)
10. Previous & next button in Nautilus.
11. Make the DE indipendent of WM or make it COMPIZ based (CLEM said he will try http://cinnamon.linuxmint.com/?page_id=61#comment-107)


I think that is an excellent post and in many ways something the Mint devs should listen to. I particularly like #02, as an overview menu simply is the best way I have ever worked on a computer and for me represents the future, I simply don't want a menu in my panel any more. But as you might expect I can't agree with everything you say and the thought of the desktop being based on Compiz is frightening ( I always delete Compiz from every installation I do, because for me the huge and unnecessary effort to get compiz and its predecessors stuffed into Linux marked the beginning of the end of Linux as a serious distro and turned it into nothing more than a desperate attempt at a Windows clone - although there are exceptions I grant you).

But if Clem manages to get even a few of those options into Cinnamon, and Ubuntu continue with Unity then ubuntu is finished and LM will take over the LInux world. I hope so anyway.
Fujitsu Lifebook AH532. Intel i5 processor, 6Gb ram, Intel HD3000 graphics, Intel Audio/wifi. Realtek RTL8111/8168B Ethernet.Lubuntu 13.10,Ubuntu12.10 (Unity), Mint16 (Cinnamon), Manjaro (Xfce).
Image
User avatar
viking777
Level 14
Level 14
 
Posts: 5153
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:21 am

Re: My thinking about CINNAMON

Postby Oscar799 on Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:04 pm

Moved here by moderator
Image
"Don't fix it if it ain't broken,don't break it if you can't fix it" Husse
Registered Linux User #511789
User avatar
Oscar799
Level 18
Level 18
 
Posts: 8826
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:21 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: My thinking about CINNAMON

Postby cwwgateway on Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:02 pm

otitkothabole wrote:I downloaded CINNAMON & log in to it. I saw there is no top panel, no add to desktop yet, a bottom panel with panel icons & menu(exactly like GNOME 2), an INFINITY sign for over view mode, no favorites & menu in overview
mode. I was totally surprised & disappointed. I wonder, why they are trying to make it almost like GNOME 2? I know there are lots people who still preffer GNOME 2 & for them there is still MATE.

CLEM said that, they are gonna continue both CINNAMON & MATE. Then why both of them having exactly same look? And what about people like me , who loved the view of GNOME SHELL with additional fetures of extensions. I request the the DEVS to cnsider the fllowing option in CINNAMON

01. Bottom Panel only/Top panel only/Both.
02, Bottom menu only/Overview menu only/both.
03. Clock on bottom right/top middle/top right.
04. Status icon/name on bottom right/top right.
05. Notification in bottom/top.
06. Hotspot on/off
07. Activity text/Infinty sign
08. Favourite in Overview right dock/in desktop
09. Add to dektop & add to panel(Clem said they are added,available in GIT & will be available in repo soon http://cinnamon.linuxmint.com/?page_id=61#comment-107)
10. Previous & next button in Nautilus.
11. Make the DE indipendent of WM or make it COMPIZ based (CLEM said he will try http://cinnamon.linuxmint.com/?page_id=61#comment-107)

First of all, I don't agree that mate and cinnamon look exactly the same. They have a similar layout, but Cinnamon (imo) is much more kde-like. Also, cinnamon provides the underlying technology of gnome 3/gnome shell, with a more traditional environment. Here are my responses to your list.
01. I completely agree. Clem says that he will add customization features such as these, and remember that there will be extensions in time and that cinnamon is in alpha (as you said).
02. No disrespect intended, but the whole point of cinnamon is to provide a more traditional desktop. If you just have the overview menu, it is basically gnome shell. Why not just install gnome shell??? Cinnamon's goal is to create a more traditional desktop based on gnome 3. It's secondary goal is to provide some customization features. While this feature might come in time, I don't think it should be clem's priority or even a thought on his mind until cinnamon is stable and has all of the features it is supposed to have. Sort of like a feature that you add to KDE 4.7 instead of KDE 4.0 (I don't mean that in any real reference to the releases themselves, just the numbers)
03. I agree that cinnamon should eventually have the ability to move panel applets, and this includes the clock. But again, cinnamon is trying to be DIFFERENT from and better than (for traditional users) gnome shell, not a replica. This is what my answer will be to a lot of your ideas.
04. I'm not quite sure what you mean by this.
05. I agree, and this feature will come in time (I think).
06. Added in Cinnamon 1.1.3. But for the record, I agree.
07. Same answer as to 02 and 03, but I agree that you should be able to add/change/create text and icons for the activities overview and for the mint menu (which might actually exist).
08. I agree that eventually this could be added as a customization feature.
09. I completely agree, and, as you said, I think that it has already been added (although I'm not sure).
10. I agree, but I'm not quite sure about if that's related to cinnamon.
11. I agree, however compiz is not universally loved, and I don't think that it would be easy (if feasible) to actually add it.
Come to think about it, if cinnamon got the customization features of gnome 2 added (add to panel, add to desktop, add panel, etc), it would meet most (if not all) of your needs.
Dell XPS 15 l502x - Debian Testing 64-bit NetInst Xfce, SolydX 64-bit Debian Testing, SolydK 64-bit SolydXK Testing
Old Gateway Pentium 4 Desktop - Arch Linux 64-bit Xfce and SolydX 32-bit Sid
cwwgateway
Level 5
Level 5
 
Posts: 839
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:44 pm

Re: My thinking about CINNAMON

Postby nidwow on Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:05 pm

cwwgateway wrote:06. Added in Cinnamon 1.1.3. But for the record, I agree.


How do I turn the hotspot off? I've found myself cursing bad words more than one when I hit top left corner by accident. :mrgreen:
nidwow
Level 2
Level 2
 
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 6:30 am

Re: My thinking about CINNAMON

Postby bimsebasse on Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:21 pm

Follow the dconf editor steps in 5c in this guide until you arrive here:
Image

That's where you do all GUI tweaks at the moment, but you have to install dconf-tools first. The screenshot was taken in Cinnamon 1.1.2, a few extra options came in 1.1.3, including the one you're looking for, "overview-corner-visible"
Thank you for this thread. That’s all I can say. You most definitely have made this forum into something special. You clearly know what you are doing, you’ve covered so many bases. Thanks!
User avatar
bimsebasse
Level 7
Level 7
 
Posts: 1709
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:21 am
Location: Scandinavia

Re: My thinking about CINNAMON

Postby nidwow on Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:06 pm

bimsebasse wrote:
That's where you do all GUI tweaks at the moment, but you have to install dconf-tools first. The screenshot was taken in Cinnamon 1.1.2, a few extra options came in 1.1.3, including the one you're looking for, "overview-corner-visible"



Thank you for the tip. :D
nidwow
Level 2
Level 2
 
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 6:30 am

Re: My thinking about CINNAMON

Postby viking777 on Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:28 am

@cwwgateway

No disrespect intended, but the whole point of cinnamon is to provide a more traditional desktop. If you just have the overview menu, it is basically gnome shell. Why not just install gnome shell???


I can answer that point very easily.

It is the declared intention of the gnome devs that the system tray and its status icons are 'deprecated' and should no longer be used. They have integrated this lunatic logic into the design of gnome-shell by auto hiding the bottom panel therefore making it impossible to see what is happening on it unless you leave your mouse over it all the time - which I am sure you will agree is not a good solution. Neither is unhiding the panel a good solution, because you then get back to the two panel layout that makes no sense to me at all and never has (plus the fact that to date I haven't found a way in gnome-shell to unhide the bottom panel, not that I am looking for one any more).

This is why you can't just install gnome-shell to get overview mode, because you would lose the vital information that the systray and its status icons provide.

That is why otitkothabole's point #2 is for me, the most important one he makes.

Put simply, whilst both Cinnamon and gnome-shell are good de's neither of them is good enough as they stand at the moment. There is no doubt that Cinnamon is the better of the two in its basic state because you can work with just a bottom panel and no overview mode at all - most of us have been doing that for years. But you can't work with an invisible systray - at least I cant.

One last point is that the purpose of Cinnamon is not to provide a 'traditional' desktop, Mate does that (at least I think so, I have never even looked at it, that is how much it appeals to me). The purpose of Cinnamon is to provide a blend of the familiar and the new and that is why it has an overview mode, because like it or not that is the future (in gnome anyway).
Fujitsu Lifebook AH532. Intel i5 processor, 6Gb ram, Intel HD3000 graphics, Intel Audio/wifi. Realtek RTL8111/8168B Ethernet.Lubuntu 13.10,Ubuntu12.10 (Unity), Mint16 (Cinnamon), Manjaro (Xfce).
Image
User avatar
viking777
Level 14
Level 14
 
Posts: 5153
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:21 am

Re: My thinking about CINNAMON

Postby otitkothabole on Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:28 am

viking777 wrote:
the thought of the desktop being based on Compiz is frightening ( I always delete Compiz from every installation I do, because for me the huge and unnecessary effort to get compiz and its predecessors stuffed into Linux marked the beginning of the end of Linux as a serious distro and turned it into nothing more than a desperate attempt at a Windows clone - although there are exceptions I grant you).

But if Clem manages to get even a few of those options into Cinnamon, and Ubuntu continue with Unity then ubuntu is finished and LM will take over the LInux world. I hope so anyway.


I also had some horrible stability issue with COMPIZ & I stopped using it. But I still like its features. So if CLEM can work wih COMPIZ devs & make it stable & default in CINNAMON, i'll be delighted.

cwwgateway wrote:
02. No disrespect intended, but the whole point of cinnamon is to provide a more traditional desktop. If you just have the overview menu, it is basically gnome shell. Why not just install gnome shell???


If I use just gnome-shell, i'll have no bottom panel with window list & show desktop. But these I really need. I'll have no mintmenu also which I am still using (because I am used to) though I really liked the overlay menu.

Cinnamon's goal is to create a more traditional desktop based on gnome 3.


Is it really? I doubt that. If there is MATE alive, why shoukd they create CINNAMON??

10. I agree, but I'm not quite sure about if that's related to cinnamon.


Sorry about this. I wasn't sure. May be its in Nautilus. But I really missing this in LISA

viking777 wrote:
One last point is that the purpose of Cinnamon is not to provide a 'traditional' desktop, Mate does that (at least I think so, I have never even looked at it, that is how much it appeals to me). The purpose of Cinnamon is to provide a blend of the familiar and the new and that is why it has an overview mode, because like it or not that is the future (in gnome anyway).


I totally agree.

Some of the points are solved & #10 is offtpic. So, I edited the post
otitkothabole
Level 1
Level 1
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 4:31 am
Location: Sylhet, Bangladesh

Re: My thinking about CINNAMON

Postby eightup1 on Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:49 am

I really like the direction cinnamon is going in , i find it missing a lot of features that i truly want like being able to easily re arrange the icons on the bottom panel .... i can't figure out how to get larger fonts or icons in the menu yet and a few other things but i know clem will get it all sorted out eventually. this is actually the first time i've been excited about a DE . I really think cinnamon could be something great as long as they listen to us and try to implement the features that we want
User avatar
eightup1
Level 2
Level 2
 
Posts: 57
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:35 pm

Re: My thinking about CINNAMON

Postby kijin on Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:09 pm

otitkothabole wrote:
Cinnamon's goal is to create a more traditional desktop based on gnome 3.

Is it really? I doubt that. If there is MATE alive, why shoukd they create CINNAMON??

Because MATE is based on an old technology.

You can't judge desktop environments merely on the basis of their appearances. The stupid new shell isn't all there is to GNOME 3. GNOME 3 also introduced a lot of cool technologies under the hood, and these could open up interesting possibilities in the future. MATE can't use these new features. Cinnamon can.

It might look like Cinnamon is just a duplicate of MATE right now, but it's probably a better investment for the future because it's based on more modern technologies. You get the traditional appearance and a whole bunch of new possibilities! It's going to be the best of both worlds.
kijin
Level 1
Level 1
 
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:12 pm

Re: My thinking about CINNAMON

Postby cwwgateway on Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:59 pm

viking777 wrote:@cwwgateway

No disrespect intended, but the whole point of cinnamon is to provide a more traditional desktop. If you just have the overview menu, it is basically gnome shell. Why not just install gnome shell???


I can answer that point very easily.

It is the declared intention of the gnome devs that the system tray and its status icons are 'deprecated' and should no longer be used. They have integrated this lunatic logic into the design of gnome-shell by auto hiding the bottom panel therefore making it impossible to see what is happening on it unless you leave your mouse over it all the time - which I am sure you will agree is not a good solution. Neither is unhiding the panel a good solution, because you then get back to the two panel layout that makes no sense to me at all and never has (plus the fact that to date I haven't found a way in gnome-shell to unhide the bottom panel, not that I am looking for one any more).

This is why you can't just install gnome-shell to get overview mode, because you would lose the vital information that the systray and its status icons provide.

That is why otitkothabole's point #2 is for me, the most important one he makes.

Put simply, whilst both Cinnamon and gnome-shell are good de's neither of them is good enough as they stand at the moment. There is no doubt that Cinnamon is the better of the two in its basic state because you can work with just a bottom panel and no overview mode at all - most of us have been doing that for years. But you can't work with an invisible systray - at least I cant.

One last point is that the purpose of Cinnamon is not to provide a 'traditional' desktop, Mate does that (at least I think so, I have never even looked at it, that is how much it appeals to me). The purpose of Cinnamon is to provide a blend of the familiar and the new and that is why it has an overview mode, because like it or not that is the future (in gnome anyway).

From the cinnamon github readme (at the bottom of this page: https://github.com/linuxmint/Cinnamon):
Cinnamon is a Linux desktop which provides advanced innovative features and a traditional user experience.

I apologize, however, for my install gnome-shell statement, and I would like to rephrase it. As cinnamon's goal (stated above) is to provide a traditional user experience, I don't think that this should be high on the to-do list, but eventually, once the default cinnamon is "up to snuff," it should be added along with other customization features.
Dell XPS 15 l502x - Debian Testing 64-bit NetInst Xfce, SolydX 64-bit Debian Testing, SolydK 64-bit SolydXK Testing
Old Gateway Pentium 4 Desktop - Arch Linux 64-bit Xfce and SolydX 32-bit Sid
cwwgateway
Level 5
Level 5
 
Posts: 839
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:44 pm

Re: My thinking about CINNAMON

Postby craig10x on Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:51 am

That is exactly the reason and advantage of Cinnamon...traditional desktop appearance COMBINED with more modern technology (advantages of the new Gnome3 itself...we are not talking about the "shell" but rather the system underneath it)...that is why it's ultimately the better solution over MATE... :D
craig10x
Level 7
Level 7
 
Posts: 1502
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:44 pm

Re: My thinking about CINNAMON

Postby eightup1 on Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:09 am

craig10x wrote: COMBINED with more modern technology (advantages of the new Gnome3 itself

i must be mising something , i do not see one single bennefit of gnome 3 all i see is unneccesary flash and glam that makes it laggy slow and buggy,
User avatar
eightup1
Level 2
Level 2
 
Posts: 57
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:35 pm

Re: My thinking about CINNAMON

Postby craig10x on Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:26 pm

new technology is always a bit slow and buggy at the beginning and then rapidly improves...ask some of the kde fans about when kde 4 was introduced as compared to how it is now...although i do find some bugs in it i haven't really been finding it to be laggy...

as far as the advantages...i will leave that to someone who is more technical then me to jump in here and address that...but to me it feels better then the old gnome...can't exactly explain what it is though...
craig10x
Level 7
Level 7
 
Posts: 1502
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:44 pm

Re: My thinking about CINNAMON

Postby cwwgateway on Mon Jan 09, 2012 6:20 pm

craig10x wrote:new technology is always a bit slow and buggy at the beginning and then rapidly improves...ask some of the kde fans about when kde 4 was introduced as compared to how it is now...although i do find some bugs in it i haven't really been finding it to be laggy...

as far as the advantages...i will leave that to someone who is more technical then me to jump in here and address that...but to me it feels better then the old gnome...can't exactly explain what it is though...

Well GTK 3 (or maybe gtk+, they always confuse me) got a big upgrade in gnome 3. And gnome 3 (not gnome shell, gnome 3) is supposed to have fairly major advantages over gnome 2. I have no idea what they are.
Dell XPS 15 l502x - Debian Testing 64-bit NetInst Xfce, SolydX 64-bit Debian Testing, SolydK 64-bit SolydXK Testing
Old Gateway Pentium 4 Desktop - Arch Linux 64-bit Xfce and SolydX 32-bit Sid
cwwgateway
Level 5
Level 5
 
Posts: 839
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:44 pm

Re: My thinking about CINNAMON

Postby wei2912 on Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:48 am

otitkothabole wrote:11. Make the DE indipendent of WM or make it COMPIZ based (CLEM said he will try http://cinnamon.linuxmint.com/?page_id=61#comment-107)


This might be quite difficult to do since gnome-shell's mutter is integrated deeply into gnome-shell, as are the panels etc. Hopefully clem will find a way.
wei2912
Level 2
Level 2
 
Posts: 79
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:00 am

Linux Mint is funded by ads and donations.
 

Return to Cinnamon

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests